Iron Flame Theory: Andarna knows how to kill venin

Last updated:

November 15, 2023

Written by: Cory

In Chapter 64, a stunning revelation unfolds as Andarna shares a secret with Violet Sorrengail. Andarna is a 7th breed of dragon!

Andarna waited a whopping 650 years to hatch. She explains to Violet in chapter 64 that she heard the elders speaking about a girl, the weakling daughter of their General, destined to become the top scribe and the heart of a dragon rider. Andarna believed this girl was meant for her. Please pay close attention to the wording in bold.

“I waited 650 years to hatch. Waited until your eighteenth summer, when I heard our elders talk of the weakling daughter of their general, the girl forecasted to become the head of the scribes and I knew. You would have the mind of a scribe and the heart of a rider. You would be mine.”

“You couldn’t have known I will be a rider”

“And yet here we are.”

—

“…are you willing to breathe fire for the stone.”

“It is why I was left behind. […] At least from what I remember. It has been centuries.”

—

Whoa, whoa, whoa, there are so many layers here I can barely contain myself. Right, tin foils at the ready because I’m about to take you all on a wild journey.

The 650-Year Wait: Andarna’s Revelation

Imagine waiting a staggering 650 years to hatch. That’s precisely what Andarna did. But for what reason? To await someone like Violet? Did she know Violet could be the SECRET? The WEAPON?

Then, she speaks of being left to breathe fire upon the stone. Was this because the elders of that era foresaw the future? Or did they desire a backup plan in case history repeated itself?

Consider that dragons typically live for about 200 years. Tairn, for instance, is middle-aged at around 100 years old. Therefore, no elder from 650 years ago could be alive today. Yet, the elders are aware of Andarna being of the 7th breed. Intriguingly, they chose not to share this information with other dragons. Why, I wonder?

Now, back to Andarna. She overheard the elders mention a “weakling daughter of their general.” Andarna realised this girl was destined for her, which is why she waited all those centuries. How did she overhear this? As an egg? I want to know more about the ability to overhear something when she was just a hatchling to be…

The Time Plot Thickens

Here’s where it becomes even more fascinating. Tairn refers to the first six riders visiting the den over 600 years ago. According to the Fourth Wing records, the Great War concluded 627 years ago, so it’s likely that the first riders approached the dens around then. Since Andarna had been waiting for 650 years, she was abandoned BEFORE the Great War. Yet, the 7th breed was still around during and shortly after the Great War, as they were essential for the wardstone, right? So, what exactly happened to this breed?

Brennan mentions something killed the venin during the Great War. Thus, there must be a way to defeat them again, surely? Andarna was already waiting to hatch…she must have overheard more. After all, the Great War occurred AFTER Andarna was already a hatchling-in-waiting. If she could overhear the elders speak of the weakling daughter, then surely she must have overheard crucial information from the Great War (or at least she will know where to find the info).

Andarna acknowledges she was left behind for her role in breathing fire on the wardstone. That’s what she recalls, at least. It has been centuries, after all. I believe Andarna will recall much more, potentially aiding Violet in either mending the soul or finding a way to defeat the venin once again.

Elders’ Future-Seeing Skills & the 7th breed

Did certain past elders possess foresight? Or did they merely leave Andarna as a contingency in case she was needed should the wardstone fail? Also, why haven’t any other 7th breed dragons hatched since then? Or do they exist elsewhere? Is Andarna the only one of her kind in the world, or just part of the Empyrean?

“You couldn’t have known I will be a rider”

“And yet here we are.”

Can the 7th breed predict the future somehow? Again, it feels like she was left behind because her elders KNEW she will be needed. How did Andarna know indeed that Violet will become a rider? WHAT IS GOING ON?

Andarna does say in her own words, “I was left behind.” Andarna was indeed left behind, but what does that signify? What became of her kin, the 7th breed of dragons? Did they perish, or are they residing elsewhere, possibly off the continent?

And now the BIG ONE: Mystery of the General

Andarna said “Waited until your eighteenth summer, when I heard our elders talk of the weakling daughter of their general, the girl forecasted to become the head of the scribes and I knew”.

But which general? Surely not the dragons’, as Codagh is an elder, and his rider is Navarre’s commanding General. If anything, General Melgren would be “their general.” But (as far as we know) he has nothing to do with Violet Sorrengail. I realise this might seem like mere semantics, but it doesn’t appear that they’re referring to General Sorrengail (her mother) because she is just A General, and not THEIR General.

But then…what if “their general” is the venin’s general? Like when we discover the Sage is the General in ‘Iron Flame’? This revelation opens up a myriad of possibilities! Some fans here already speculate that Mr Sorrengail might be the venin General.

That would be prophetic, indeed.

Andarna – instrumental in defeating venin

Andarna’s unique nature and her bond with Violet appear crucial in unveiling these mysteries and finding the answers needed to defeat venin. The big problem? Xaden is now turning venin too…

And as far as I am concerned, this book can go two ways: Violet learns how to mend the soul of venin, hence saving Xaden. Or Violet learns how to kill venin…in which case, we shouldn’t overlook Xaden’s favourite saying “you will be the death of me.”

So, dear fans, what are your thoughts? Are we on the verge of a groundbreaking revelation that could alter everything we know about Andarna and her world?

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Posted by:

Cory

Hello! I’m Cory, a devoted superfan of the Fourth Wing, Iron Flame and the Empyrean Series. My passion for these epic tales has led me to read and reread the books, each time uncovering new layers of information. I’ve created this site to share my insights and discoveries with fellow fans and anyone interested in exploring the rich world of Empyrean.

117 responses to “Iron Flame Theory: Andarna knows how to kill venin”

Ashley
November 15, 2023 at 7:30 am
We know Rebecca Yarros is fine killing main characters in her books. As much as it will devastate me, I think Xaden is going to die before the series is over. Haven’t done my second read of Iron Flame yet but looking forward to reading everyone’s theories.
Reply
1. Cory
  November 15, 2023 at 7:35 am
  I am doing my second read now. And I’m writing down all the theories, but let’s face it. So far, Yarros has spelt a lot of things for us in this series. And it kills me to say it “you’ll be the death of me”? Yeah, I think it’s a real clue. (ARGH)
  Reply
2. Judy D
  November 21, 2023 at 1:56 pm
  Just finished Iron Flame, but I am confused on some parts of it. If someone would please answer me, that would be amazing! Okay so we know that by stealing power turn you venin? I’m not sure how exactly do they turn, but anyways we also know that the wards keep venin out, but Jack Barlowe was able to be within the wards. How? And same thing goes for Xaden. If he turned or turning venin. How can he stay within the wards? And did Andarna and Codagh raise the wards alone? Didn’t we need 7 different breeds of dragons to raise the wards again?
  Reply
  1. Cory
    November 22, 2023 at 12:26 am
    Ok, let me help you out. It’s information heavy, isn’t it?
    You steal power from the ground, that’s how you become venin. You basically steal magic and devoid the land of magic.
    The wards don’t allow but any magic but the ones channelled by dragons. So gryphons and their fliers, as well as venin, can exist within the wards, they just can’t wield. So they are defenseless and powerless.
    No no. There were 7 breeds of dragons there. All colours were present. The author just emphasised a bit on Codagh and Andarna. I hope this helps 🙂 Welcome to the world of Empyrean <3
    Reply
    1. Judy D
      November 22, 2023 at 10:15 pm
      Thank you so much! That really helped! ☺️
      Reply
3. Ria
  December 10, 2023 at 6:03 pm
  Rebecca has said multiple times that it’s a hea..or prolly hinted at that..if Xaden dies I’ll dnf this book for sure
  Reply
  1. Cory
    December 11, 2023 at 11:14 am
    Did she? Oh, I hope so…I hope so. I think we all need a good HEA here to be fair.
    Reply
4. John
  December 17, 2023 at 11:13 pm
  Just finished Iron flame and man oh man !
  So i guess Xaden is definitely turning venin as Jack makes this abunduntly clear when he literally says “welcome to the family” after Xaden asks about the serum/cure and where it was, somehow this gives me hope that there’s indeed a serum/cure but Jack is just not willing to let Xaden know or he actually doesnt know… also, obviously Xaden is free to go around the school after the incident when he wakes up from the nightmare and go visit Jack, whom one would think wouls be under heavy guarded, though Sgaeyl, Violet and no doubt Tiarn all know that he’s turning ..
  Now this whole Mr. Sorrengail thing; so it could be that he was indeed a rider that somehow turned a venin and was kept in check by the serum, and as he couldnt weild anymore he became a scribe, explaining almost all of Lilith’s cryptic talk about the trio’s father, and how he had access to knowledge about feathertails etc..
  Violet can definitely forsee the future, and i think the nightmares she saw from Xaden’s POV were just the preample of her 2nd signet, since Andarna doesnt know the limits of her own powers yet- she was surprised when she breathed fire at the venin…
  My only problem is whether they’ll reverse Xaden’s venin-turning-problem or just keep him dosed with the serum; i dont think RY will kill Xaden, i certainly hope not ! Xaden does make contradictory “prophecies” in a way : that Violet will be the end of him and that he and Violet are the endgame …
  Ugh waiting for the next book is going to be annoying :/
  Reply
  1. Cory
    December 18, 2023 at 9:15 am
    Re “Now this whole Mr. Sorrengail thing; so it could be that he was indeed a rider that somehow turned a venin and was kept in check by the serum, and as he couldnt weild anymore he became a scribe, explaining almost all of Lilith’s cryptic talk about the trio’s father, and how he had access to knowledge about feathertails etc..”
    Honestly. All Sorrengails are riders. She does say that specifically!
    Reply
  2. Cory
    December 18, 2023 at 9:15 am
    Violet can definitely forsee the future
    I think so too!
    Reply
5. Samantha
  January 19, 2024 at 1:36 am
  Rebecca Yarros said she needed conflict to stretch out their love story over 5 books and she has hinted at a happy ending. I think she will have a lot of p*seed off fans if she kills Xaden or Violet. They are endgame as Xaden has said. I re-read Iron Flame and every hint points to Violet being about to see the future, but I am hoping whatever signet she has helps cure Xaden. I think Violet’s Dad found a cure and she will discover it near the end of book 3. It will have another twist too. I can’t wait to find out! I will be happy as long as my favorite ship right now live happily ever after. 😊
  Reply
  1. Cory
    January 20, 2024 at 8:27 am
    I agree with you. I think hardcore fans will be coming with pitchforks if she doesn’t deliver a proper happy ending.
    Reply
    1. Noski
      August 1, 2024 at 11:22 am
      I think both will die at t’he end of five book in order to save their children. I reckon, the antifertility Will fail being Xaden a venin. It’s too much crazy?
      The Sage (or general of venin) said that She will pull of the proteccions for love… But we don’t known what love, and Beeing RY mother of 6, i think there’s no bigger love than mothers love.
      Lilith insisted that Vi Will understand her when She becomes a mother
      Reply
      1. Cory
        August 2, 2024 at 8:45 am
        So many people assume that we will have babies in the books. I think Rebecca Yarros sees them as too young for children. Maybe I am crazy haha and we will have a semi venin baby who knows.
        ARGH, it is compelling to be fair. But she is only 22, I feel like she’s so young to have children.
        You are right tho, it could have been an Easter Egg (re Lilith telling Violet this)
Lucy
November 15, 2023 at 2:37 pm
I personally think theres more than 7 breeds – Vi says something about the wyvern having more breeds than they “know” about and we know of 3 different fire colours so far, red, blue and green… i think if there are any then Andarnas breed maybe residing in the network of caves mentioned by Tairn. But yes WHY was she left behind and definitely something to do with foresight here !
Their general seems to refer to the Elders – we all know Rebecca was rushing this one… so could it be a mistype?… but also could be referring to her dad being a Maven (general) Venin … but I’m just not convinced on this theory (yet)
Love the
Reply
1. Cory
  November 15, 2023 at 10:26 pm
  You do? Think there are more than 7? That would be an interesting twist. I am also no 100% on this theory because I am fully aware it could be mistyped. When you read it over and over it does refer to their elders. But they have no general as they are dragons, right? That’s what got me confused. Really, really confused. Lilith did have a weird fever during the pregnancy. She doesn’t look the same as her siblings. And Lilith kept saying “you are more like me than I thought” etc And in FW Lilith did say something along the lines “you think like the daughter of a scribe” and she did reply “I am the daughter of a scribe”… But is she?:)
  Reply
Soleil Farrell
November 16, 2023 at 12:52 am
Lilith also commented to Violet at one point “you’re all that’s left of your father”. And Violet thought to herself “what about Mira?(I think before that knew Brennan was alive)”
Reply
1. Cory
  November 16, 2023 at 1:29 am
  She says it in Iron Flame indeed! You’re all what’s left of him, you know.
  The only thing is, right… Violet does say that Brennan has their father’s nose. Hmmm
  Reply
  1. K
    November 16, 2023 at 6:49 pm
    This might be a stretch. What if violets father is Naolin and Brennan knows that? I’m not sure if we’ve ever been told how old naolin was? I’ve seen several theories that people think Brennan and Naolin were in a relationship but what if Naolin was violets father? The other thing this doesn’t explain is general sorrengail says something like “all sorrengails are riders”. But Mr. Sorrengail was a scribe not a rider and violet had only known him as dad, not step dad or similar. If this were true that means tairn bonded a direct descendant of his previous rider but no person would know, only dragons. Would that mean violet would have 3 signers? One more thought, maybe shouldn’t be this thread, but yarros says in that variety interview when the interviewer says something like “no one has ever come back from being a venin” and yarros responds “or have they? I really hope you like book 3”. What if general sorrengail’s “fever” was becoming venin and then “recovering” from it and the consequence was violet ending up with the physical differences she has? Gray seems to be the common theme with venin (the hand prints on Dain’s arm, etc). What if general sorrengail did something similar to xaden and that serum in some form has been around for at least 21 years?
    Reply
    1. Cory
      November 16, 2023 at 11:56 pm
      OH GOD, K, you might be onto something spectacular here with the fever. The first time things actually click when talking about that fever with Lilith. Yeah, it very very well could be. But if that’s the case, for Lilith to not say anything in her 13th clock, before sacrificing herself for her children? Man, that would be a killer.
      But, but (stay with me) we have a very interesting clue. Violet’s room is exactly the same as she left it. She even says so how confused she is about it. Which means, a lot of information and research will be there. Including classified discussions, potential serum information hidden by Lilith for Violet to discover, and definitely the feathertail research her father had.
      As for Naolin, you are right, we don’t know much about him. Nobody explains his age, nobody talks about it. And Tairn is pretty strict about it too, he does not want to talk about him.
      I too believe that Naolin and Brennan were an item.
      But when it comes to Violet’s father? Oh Oh, so I’m doing the second re-read at a snail pace, right? Underlining every bit of evidence haha And let me tell you. Mr Sorrengail? I REALLY don’t think it’s Violet’s father. I think Brennan and Mira are her half siblings only. I promise to try and write that theory asap. Time, I just need more time in a day!
      Reply
      1. K
        November 18, 2023 at 11:32 pm
        My other two big thoughts, one which conflicts with my above theory (maybe), is general sorrengail a “recovered” venin. Wondering if, similar to Xaden, grabbed the power close to burnout to protect her children and husband and didn’t know she was pregnant with violet at the time? Again a stretch, but it would explain violets silver (gray) hair possibly.
        My other theory (wasn’t sure where to put this) is curious if there’s a dragon prophecy and that’s what the dragons are all hiding from the humans. Something like the one left behind will emerge in the 650th year to unite the dark and the light to bring peace to the continent. It wouldn’t be a full prophecy without some kind of sacrifice in there (andarna being the sacrificial part maybe?). But something about tairn saying violet would be his last rider and andarna waiting 650 years to hatch. There’s something there the dragons know or see that the humans don’t.
      2. Cory
        November 18, 2023 at 11:48 pm
        It could be…I remember now that Tairn did tell Violet “you will be my last rider”. I find that very important. And indeed, Andarna did wait for Violet specifically. It feels like eiether everyone dies to save the continent, or there will be no more need for bonds in the future.
        As for General Sorrengail…hmmm, I actually don’t know. We have just bits and pieces of info right now. It feels like Violet is the child of a venin but I wonder in what context. Was Mr Sorrengail the venin? Becoming venin thus passing some stuff to Violet? Is that why she said you are all that’s LEFT of him? No, it doesn’t make sense.
      3. K
        November 18, 2023 at 11:33 pm
        And I just repeated myself apparently, but still wondering about a dragon prophecy.
      4. Patri
        November 19, 2023 at 10:41 am
        OMG reading this I really think that Ms Sorrengail was becoming a Benin at some point. I recall that in FW Violet tells that one day her mom went home with her eyes bloodshot, that she thought her mom was a venin…
      5. Cory
        November 19, 2023 at 1:17 pm
        Yes…I remember that too! A strange thing to mention, right?
    2. Amanda
      December 5, 2023 at 10:50 pm
      But Lilith says that she loved her husband. And before she dies she says that she is happy to meet him again. And the quote before chapter 65 is a letter Lilith writes to her “love” talking about their children. I don’t think their relationship is the key.
      Reply
      1. Cory
        December 6, 2023 at 9:34 am
        We are left with so many questions about Lilith Sorrengail. We knew she will be an important character but this is BEYOND. I really need to know about her. We need a book just about Lilith. And one about Andarna…and I feel like we need 10 books and not just 5!
  2. Em
    November 17, 2023 at 4:42 am
    This is a great theory!! I love it
    One thought I had, since Jack is still alive and just kept below in the prison. And he’s already saved Violet’s life once, Do you think he’s might lead a small group to kidnap Violet and bring her to the Venin (which might be bringing her to her father)?
    Maybe they all have orders to bring her back to him, and that’s why Jack didn’t let her die when she had been about to fall
    Reply
    1. Cory
      November 17, 2023 at 4:53 am
      I think Jack will definitely actively try to take Violet to the venin. I reckon eventually he will escape or be let out (maybe even by Xaden himself…)
      Reply
      1. Alison
        November 19, 2023 at 6:02 am
        If that isn’t the cliffhanger ending of book 3, I don’t know what is. 😂
      2. Cory
        November 19, 2023 at 10:43 am
        NO, Alison. NOOOOOO, we need to sleep, eat, drink, be able to live after book 3. That would kill us all 😂
Rose
November 16, 2023 at 3:16 pm
First, I am sorry for my very bad english. English is not my first language. Second, call me crazy. Because I have a very wild thought about “The General”.
So.. every riders have signet from the bond they have to their dragons, right? So, what if.. someone have a time traveller power??
Here, I don’t how the books will end. But, what if sometime in the future Tairn and Sgaeyl finally have an offspring. An egg. But someone decide to bring the egg back to the past. So the elders can watch over it and that someone tell stories about the future. About “the weakling daughter of their General” and wyvern, venin, the wards, etc.
That’s why the elders know Violet. The egg is Andarna… Violet twice thinking that Andarna is Tairn and Sgaeyl offspring. What if she is right all the time?
Once again, call me crazy and I am sorry about my bad English.. oh, and I love your articles too.. Great thanks for your hardwork..
Reply
1. Cory
  November 16, 2023 at 11:45 pm
  Hey, please don’t be sorry, your English is excellent and you are brilliant because you can speak multiple languages! You should be proud.
  And I would never call anyone crazy for dreaming theories, because this is fantasy! We should fantasize, and that’s what this site is about.
  What strikes me as odd is that Tairn and Sgayel said it not once but twice that Andarna is not their child. I appreciate it that we needed to reinforce this in Iron Flame but Yarros is never random. She rarely emphasises things for the sake of it. While I am not sure if time traveller power is a thing right now (altho it would be awesome!) it’s not impossible at all. But it would explain my theory just as much. After all, seeing the future or having the ability to time travel, neither confirmed in the book nor do we have a basis for either of it at the moment. But I reckon we will know in book 3. This is getting soooo exciting!
  Also question, can Andarna and Sgaeyl, a black and a blue create a dragon which belongs to the 7th species? We still don’t know much about dragons and how their hatchlings work. We know they are all golden when small, and eventually they get their pigment. For example, we know that only the eldest of the den can sense the pigment of a dragon. So it’s safe to say that it doesn’t matter which colour dragons mate, the result is still a surprise? Like, a red and an orange can still create a blue right? Tairn did mention that two more black dragons hatched…so I guess this was relevant for us to know?
  Reply
L
November 18, 2023 at 7:44 am
Hello thanks Cory for putting this site together.
Some thoughts as I’m on my second read
Violets dad doing research on feather tails , something rare and known very little about. Could indicate he’s able to speak or work more closely with the dragons and was able to tell them about the weakling daughter but with a mind of a scribe? The dad doesn’t have a man yet but he could have appeared in one of the excerpts before the chapters we just don’t know yet. I also kind of think he could be the general venin. But less proof there my only thing is that when Lilith died she mentioned seeing her love again. Which might contradict this theory.
In regards to Lilith fever and violets silver hair. If Lilith was sick couldn’t Nolan have healed her? Could violets silver hair be from if a venin (maybe daddy sorengail) tried to drain her like jack to Dain? It does seem like Lilith has. Bigger plan for all her kids especially violet.
Skipping to dragon theory. Here are the colors we know.
Red,Green,Orange,,Blue,Black,Brown. Andarnas different or can change colors Twice in the books she mentions it’s almost a purple or perhaps a shade of violet?
In the excerpts it mentions Basgiath as the hatching grounds for greens and Aretia is the hatching grounds or den for blacks. I’ll pull pg numbers when I can. Could this mean that each dragon kind has its own hatching grounds?
I think violet will still be able to stop time. Maybe even expand that signet.
1. In fourth wing it’s said that hatchlings could GIVE their power to their bonded and throughout iron flame violet measures time in heart beats as if it’s slowed down
I have a lot of other random thoughts b7t wanted to jot these down. Sorry for the poor grammar and formatting on a tablet. But excited to see what you come up with in your second read
Reply
1. Cory
  November 18, 2023 at 10:18 am
  You are most welcome. I hope it helps with the book hangover, a bit.
  >>Could indicate he’s able to speak or work more closely with the dragons and was able to tell them about the weakling daughter but with a mind of a scribe?
  So your theory is that he somehow managed to feed the information to the elders? It’s possible. Technically he died when Violet was 18, just 2 years before her entering the Riders Quadrant.
  >>I also kind of think he could be the general venin. But less proof there my only thing is that when Lilith died she mentioned seeing her love again. Which might contradict this theory.
  My theory so far is that the scribe, was Lilith’s true love as she said herself, and there is huge resemblance between him and Mira and Brennan. But Lilith does tell Violet that she is all that’s LEFT of her dad. Errrrr, excuse me? It almost feels like maybe Mr Sorrengail might not have been her dad and she is indeed the daughter of “their” General (venin). Wild, Wild. I’m not sure yet, still gathering data.
  >>Skipping to dragon theory. Here are the colors we know.
  Yarros mentions in the book that Andarna is iridescent/pearlescent.
  >>Could this mean that each dragon kind has its own hatching grounds?
  Yes. In fact, they do say that because of the wards, all dragons moved to the Vale. So there were many hatching grounds around the continent.
  >>I think violet will still be able to stop time. Maybe even expand that signet.
  I freaking LOVE this theory so much. WHAT? This is excellent. Can I make it into a potential theory here and attribute? I reckon others would LOVE LOVE LOVE this.
  >>I have a lot of other random thoughts b7t wanted to jot these down. Sorry for the poor grammar and formatting on a tablet.
  No need! Your comment has been full of awesome theories and ideas!
  Reply
  1. K
    November 18, 2023 at 11:38 pm
    Wait. Mr sorrengail dies when violet was 18. Andarna hatched when violet was 18. That can’t be a coincidence.
    Reply
    1. Cory
      November 18, 2023 at 11:45 pm
      Indeed…indeed
      Reply
    2. Patri
      November 19, 2023 at 10:51 am
      And when Violet talks to Tairn and Andarna about her dad, Tairn responds but Andarna keeps quiet… I don’t remember in which book this bit of information was, sorry.
      But I LOVE the theory that Violet can still stop time. Tairn did say that Andarna cannot, but not that Violet couldn’t!
      Thank you so much for putting this site together, I love reading all these theories! Also I’m sorry cause English isn’t my first language
      Reply
      1. Cory
        November 19, 2023 at 1:18 pm
        Oh please do not worry. We’re all friends here and as long as we can communicate and share theories, we’re all happy! I too love the theory that Violet can now stop time.
      2. Amanda
        December 5, 2023 at 11:04 pm
        I love the theories but I can’t stop thinking about Xaden’s mom role in all this. Shouldn’t we try to focus a bit on that? Because they didn’t mention her for nothing…
      3. Cory
        December 6, 2023 at 9:24 am
        I agree. Xaden’s mom is definitely involved. But we have so little information about her. I’m still trying to come up with a sturdy enough theory so that it makes sense!
2. Patri
  November 19, 2023 at 11:33 am
  I really think Violet second signet is related to seeing the future. So, hear me out, I’m not the only one that believes this:
  After Resson ( I think that’s the name, sorry my English isn’t good) Violet had a lot of nightmares about not being able to save her friends. But that nightmare transformed to the one with the Sage/General, the one that practically identical to the POV of Xaden at the end of the book… But, what if the nightmares that Violet had were actually the future? She thought it was her the Sage was seeking, that she was the one that he immobilized, but what if Violet was seeing it through Xadens eyes?
  Also, at the end of the book Xaden says something like “they’re waiting for me” referencing the second wave and the Sage/General. Could Xaden know this because of his second signet? Of he thinks so because he had nightmares about the venin General like Violet did? This line of thought is so confusing, because that would negate my first theory… And also, who is really the general after? Both of them? I think it makes sense that the Venins General were after Xaden, because when they were climbing the mountain with the fliers to get to Aretia the wyvern used the darkness of the clouds to their advantage… Violet is super powerful, and they said multiple times that they wanted to capture her, so it really is possible that they are after the two of them.
  Also, in one of Violets nightmares, the General said to her that she would drop the wards for love, is this resolved? Would Xaden escape to protect everything and be captured?
  Sorry to dump this craziness here, I hope it’s not as chaotic as I feel right now. Feel free to tear down all of these, I actually want to see what you guys think!
  Reply
Anna
November 19, 2023 at 1:16 am
I was thinking about the theory that Violets Dad could be the leader of the Venin and I’m still trying to muddle the thoughts out in my head, but basically;
On Violets conscription day, she says ‘its been more than a year since his heart finally failed’ – which suggests to me he’d been sick for a while. It gets implied later on in the books that it was due to heartache associated with Brennans ‘death’.
But what if he was actually sick or… in the early stages of becoming venin like Xaden?
But then I thought, what could possibly have made him abuse power like that? He was a Scribe, it sounds as if he were mostly happy with his life.
But then, after Lillith sacrifices herself at the end of Iron Flame, there’s an excerpt from correspondence between the two…
‘Most Generals dream of dying in service to their Kingdom.But you know me better than that, my love. When I fall, it will be for one reason only : to protect our children.’
So I’m thinking, either he drew power to protect his children (maybe to save Lillith and their unborn child while she was pregnant, and had a terrible sickness), or against another threat perhaps ?
Maybe during his research on feathertails? I can’t quite understand how he knew about such a closely guarded secret ? Even the Dragon Proffessor knew next to nothing about them. Just vaguely knew of their existence. And yet Violets Dad had all this research on it ? It doesn’t add up to me.
But that part aside, it makes me wonder if Lillith maybe had known he was Venin. Maybe he made her swear to protect their children at all costs – against him. Once he had no control over himself anymore.
I haven’t figured my whole theory out yet 😅. I just feel like there is something here somehow. Please feel free to completely tear it apart!
Also, just one more thing that’s hurting my brain. I know there is a theory that Violet is only a half sibling of Brennan and Mira. But with how much Lillith claims to have loved their father, I just can’t see her having a child with anyone else. She’s lived a lie her whole life to protect her family (rightly or wrongly) and I just can’t see her breaking that loyalty.
But (and please correct me if I’m wrong, I’m about to start my third read through of Fourth Wing and I might notice it myself )
Was Violets Dad ever actually called ‘Mr Sorrengail’? I can only remember him ever being referred to as ‘Dad’ or ‘your father’.
I’m only thinking of it because that could explain why the whole ‘every Sorrengail becomes a rider’ thing doesn’t make sense as her dad is a scribe. Unless he’s not a Sorrengail? Maybe the surnames of the children are given by the more powerful of the parents ?
Or is that the biggest hint of all that he really isn’t father to any of the three children?
Anyway, I’ve literally just finished reading Iron Flame and I just have so many thoughts.
I’m so glad I found this site! The theories on here are so good ! I love that there are other people who care about this book just as much as I do !
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1. Cory
  November 19, 2023 at 2:03 am
  I can really see that we’re on the same wavelength here as I’m struggling with the very same issues around Violet and her dad.
  On one level, it makes sense that her dad is the General (venin). But was he the scribe to begin with? Because his heart gave up when Violet was 18. For how long was he venin? It feels impossible that maybe he was venin for 18 years (assuming he was the problem that caused Lilith’s pregnancy).
  The research on feathertails is odd to me too. Indeed, how did he have access. Was it because as a scribe he has access to classified material or did he have access to dragons?
  You are right, there is no details that he is Mr Sorrengail. At this point, we just assume. And you are also right, Lilith did say that all Sorrengails are riders. So was he a Sorrengail? Was he secretly a rider too, but undercover as a scribe? So many questions and honestly, I don’t have many answers (yet). I’m taking Iron Flame apart to be able to formulate the theories properly.
  And yes, it feels wrong that Lilith says “the love of my life was a scribe” but then she goes and has a child with someone else. Unless there is so much more to the story.
  I’m missing something obvious and it’s driving me insane. I will find it before the end of next week. I’m practically sleeping with Iron Flame in my arms, trying to find the clues we’re so desperate for. And I can see that many are thinking the same but we’re missing something crucial.
  WHO IS HE?
  Reply
  1. Anna
    November 19, 2023 at 12:50 pm
    I’m thinking that could it be as simple as none of the three Sorrengail children’s are ‘the scribes’ children ?
    Like yes they all call him Dad, and Lillith calls him ‘your father’, but maybe she had all three kids with someone else. A rider maybe ? Who turned venin, and then she met ‘the love of her life’ who she raised her kids with?
    Maybe a little to easy though.
    Reply
    1. Cory
      November 19, 2023 at 12:57 pm
      Alright so I finally wrote down my thoughts on this one. I went on a wild ride and decided to explain why I think General Venin is Violet’s dad. And how we ended up in this situation. I talk about the fever, the pregnancy and basically gathered some data from both books. Still some problematic points but at least I don’t think Violet/Brennan/Mira are half siblings right now.
      Reply
Anna
November 19, 2023 at 12:26 pm
Omg I was just rereading this post about Andarna and all of a sudden I’m sure she has foresight.
During the final battle, whenever Violet tried to make her hide in the Vale, she kept replying
‘I’ll go where I am needed”. And then literally came out of the side of the wall when Violet was about to be killed by Venin and bit his head off.
And she INSISTED on going back to Basgiath instead of staying in Aretia. Which I know could be put down to her being a stubborn adolescent BUT. What if she knew she was going to be needed somehow. Maybe not exactly how, but just the intention…
But then why wouldn’t she have stepped up to help with the wardstone in Aretia? Maybe because she can only see when the futures more determined, and as Violet hadn’t figured out she was ‘the one’ in the six and the one, she couldn’t see herself doing it ?
I dunno, all of a sudden this has more questions than answers !
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1. Cory
  November 19, 2023 at 1:21 pm
  This does leave me with more questions than answers. This would explain that maybe the 7th breed do have foresight somehow. After all, she was left behind for a reason, because they KNEW where Andarna will be needed…for the second wardstone (AGAIN)
  Reply
2. Amanda
  December 5, 2023 at 11:09 pm
  But then why wouldn’t she have stepped up to help with the wardstone in Aretia?
  Maybe because she knew she would only be able to ward once, and she as saving herself for the wards at Basgiath! Could that be it?
  Reply
  1. Cory
    December 6, 2023 at 9:21 am
    I think so. I think she knew that she was left behind for that.
    Reply
Lexie
November 20, 2023 at 3:45 am
I don’t really read any fan theories (and the comments) so I don’t know if this has been discussed yet but if Andarna’s power was to slow time, maybe some of her kind was able to bend time and travel (or foresee) the future? Saw the rise of venins that’s why they left her as a backup?
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1. Cory
  November 20, 2023 at 10:42 am
  I do think so. They almost definitely can foresee things which is why I think they left her as a backup.
  Reply
Merlin
November 20, 2023 at 8:59 am
Love your blog and all these theorie!!
I feel like the information Xaden shared about his mom might also have something to do with the venin. What if there was also a brother? Of if she turned dark after leaving?
I’m also quite curious about the “islands” and the role they are going to play in next books. They are quickly mentioned, but I feel like they might add new knowledge or help.
I really hope Violet will have some sort of power to help Xaden out. But I fear the 3rd book will have Xaden turn darker and darker… oh my if he would fully turn Venin they have a HUGE problem… but at the same time they cannot do anything because of the bond with Violet, Tairn and Sgeal. I do feel like there might be some solution, but it sure will be challenging. Maybe it has to do with your willingness to change? Maybe Jack couldnt be helped because he is so power hungry and selfish? That might be different if youre still full of love?
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1. Cory
  November 20, 2023 at 10:43 am
  I honestly believe the islands will play such a huge role in the next book. And I think Andarna’s line is somehow on those islands you know, chilling there.
  I’m working on a theory about Violet using her raw energy to “feed Xaden” and keep him alive as and when it’s needed.
  Everything for love right? So there might indeed be something there. I wonder if maybe that was the case with Lilith Sorrengail and dad. There was love and they overcame the venin issues.
  Reply
  1. Emma
    November 20, 2023 at 11:29 am
    This is so weird – while a series tends to go on, I like to make up my own stories in my head sometimes focusing on certain characters and taking them in my own direction for a bit (but then always coming back to the main story when the next book is released – stopping these lines of thought and then creating new ones) and one of my storylines is that there is a riot of dragons hiding on one of the islands – though in my head at the moment they’re black dragons and one of them is Tairn’s mother and the other is his sister 😆
    I am hoping there will be more of Andarna’s line somewhere. It will be good to know that she isn’t alone and there is another possibility of raising the wards in Aretia.
    Reply
    1. Cory
      November 20, 2023 at 11:29 pm
      Oooooh you are not off at all. Funnily enough, I have one of the theories in draft mode where I talk about Andarna’s line hiding on the islands. It’s obvious that we are going to get the islands introduced more. They were mentioned far too many times at this point. I’m gathering the quotes on how every line had its own hatchling ground. And I think this is how we explain anyway that Andarna was “left behind”. Because where else would all the dragons go? Islands…
      Reply
Emma
November 22, 2023 at 10:30 am
I think there is some sort of prophecy here – I mean there always has to be some sort of prophecy in fantasy at some point or another – it’s a question is to what extent it is known or what form it took and what it is leading to. A bit out there, but maybe the 7th breed did see future events but they needed to keep it secret for some reason (or eventually had to hide themselves) and as mentioned Andarna was left behind to aid or as a backup plan – and, always with prophecies, you can never exactly tell it fully just in case you end up changing it – so maybe they planted key words/thoughts into Andarna as a hatchling (if they can do that), things to look out for/listen for to aid when to hatch etc. and possibly as she grows she will remember more and reveal more as the books go on. Might be a bit crazy, but just having some thoughts 😆.
I definitely think that something big prophecy-wise it going on here – venin gaining more strength and power and moving out the The Barrens etc. Will just have to see what it is.
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1. Cory
  November 22, 2023 at 11:11 pm
  I do think so, I’m just praying to their Gods that it’s going to be worded more like she’s been told in conversation rather than being given a prophecy 😆. But I do think this breed is incredibly special. Not only SHE chose when to hatch which is insane?! But her scales are the ultimate camouflage. Her fire is the only one that kills venin.
  She definitely knows more than she lets on. Besides, it’s fair to assume that she’s still a teenager. She clearly has some complex against Tairn and she wants to be seen with respect. So chances are when she reaches adulthood properly, she will “start remembering” and actually helping.
  On a different note. I kinda like it that Tairn had secrets in FW and broke Violet’s heart with this. Now Violet had a super secret and Tairn got a bit of a taste of his own medicine. They levelled out the playing field.
  Reply
Rebecca C
November 22, 2023 at 9:50 pm
Love all the theories and camaraderie here.
My theory is maybe simple? But maybe the only way to cure a venin is by sacrifice?
Maybe Lilith siphoned power from her daughter while pregnant because she was turning venin and then was redeemed by something? Maybe Mr soringale? But if he were venin wouldn’t they see signs? But he did spend a lot of time researching something at the end? Not sure.
Would explain violets weaker state? Therefore balance of nature? They repeat it several times in the book.
So with that thought process Xaden either has to die, be redeemed or live in that state?
But more than likely there has to be an endgame for his character, he can’t stay in limbo forever.
I love the idea of Andarna and violet being involved in a prophecy together!
Thanks!
Reply
1. Cory
  November 23, 2023 at 9:24 am
  I think maybe power was siphoned from Lilith. But I’m not sure by whom and how. But I do think it has to do with venin.
  Reply
Lauren
November 23, 2023 at 2:47 pm
Okay, I need someone to talk me off the ledge here… I’m in book hangover phase right now but my heart is literally breaking at the thought that Xayden will die. I NEED them to be endgame. I haven’t read any of her other books but I’ve heard she kills off main characters? Is that more like a Mira/Brennan type situation? Or the couple? I CANT LIVE LIKE THIS lol
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1. Cory
  November 24, 2023 at 10:32 am
  Oh Lauren, don’t I know it? Welcome to the fan site created BECAUSE of the boom hangover. Are you ok? The best way to deal with it, IMO is to read the book again. This has helped me a lot.
  I also hope that Xaden and Violet will be able to solve their issue and be endgame. Some other people came up with different theories but I think Xaden + Violet = <3
  Reply
  1. Allie
    November 28, 2023 at 10:42 pm
    Lauren, same feelings! But also how can she write 5 books in the series if he dies halfway through? I know I’d (and maybe quite a few other fans) stop reading at 3 in that case! Sorry not sorry. After them fighting nearly the entire second book I’d say it’s a good opportunity for redemption for him! But I do like the prophecy idea that Andarna was told to hatch for Violet that case seems pretty sound. Do we ever know how long venom can live for? (Sorry if I missed this, I sped through FW and IF in 6 days after not reading forever so I may have skimmed parts) What if the general was one of the diary owners? The one who didn’t like the wards up…as venin don’t…..I don’t know I just don’t like the idea of it being Violet’s dad.
    I would love for Violet’s second signet to manifest in something to do with time. I don’t think they made Andarna have it early on just to throw it away later. As for her dreams and see into the future who’s to say venin can’t source other power to get into other riders dreams as they also did with Xaden? So many questions! I got myself the special edition of FW to reread until the next book which has some extra chapters. If anyone has that one tell me your thoughts too!
    Reply
    1. Cory
      December 1, 2023 at 9:31 am
      I don’t think he is going to die. Not without getting him back at least. We have no idea for how long venin lives. That’s a vital piece of information we currently don’t have.
      Do you like the idea that the venin could be Xaden’s grandad? Many seem to prefer that one!
      I just got the special edition too. I’m updating some wikis on it!
      Reply
  2. Elise
    November 30, 2023 at 10:32 pm
    Oh my gods Cory I’m hanging on your words they are endgame I am in a bad place! Never been this obsessed with a story line or characters before. Thanks so much for your site.
    Reply
    1. Cory
      December 1, 2023 at 11:38 am
      Elise, you are most welcome. The reason I started this was because I couldn’t cope after Fourth Wing. This keeps me grounded and centred and I can search for all sort of clues.
      Reply
M
November 27, 2023 at 9:09 pm
Cory, sorry if I missed this… but I haven’t seen anyone here talk about the fact that Andarna’s fire can kill venin! In FW, there are several mentions that dragon fire isn’t effective against venin or wyvern. Yet Andarna’s fire “roasted” the venin that she breathed fire on. Sure, she chomped his head off, but then spit out the “charred head”. Also, there is a clear distinction between Andarna’s species and the others throughout Warrick’s journal “six and the one”… why not just say seven? Why put “the one” on and island? I believe it’s because Andarna’s species’ flame is so distinct.
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1. Cory
  December 1, 2023 at 8:21 am
  We do have it somewhere, and it’s in an article here as well “What we know so far”.
  But yes, this is the mystery. How come that Andarna’s fire can actually kill venin? She is a lot more special than we initially gave her credit.
  Reply
sarah
November 29, 2023 at 7:00 pm
I have a completely different theory on the general. I think it is one of the military high ups like Aetos or Panchek. In FW it talks about the ambitious Panchek’s goals and the vibes of Aetos in IF aren’t great. The Venin leader could be hiding in plain sight. We don’t know what the Venin Maven looks like. We know what a sage looks like, but there is little info available on the mavens. I think both of Violet’s parents knew what was happening in regards to the corruption and their father developed Violet into “the mind of the scribe” and Lilith took the general’s position at the college to impact what she could while everything else fell into place and between the father’s research ( which Aetos mentions the feathertail research in FW, Lilith asks about, and Violet lies about not knowing where it is), and the family’s devotion to dragonkind, she is seen as their general. As Lilith’s being bonded to the ward stone, she says everything was done to get her to this moment.” I also think there is something deeper going on with the dragon’s. Yarros mentions multiple times the respect the other dragons show Tairn, but never Codagh. Even Andarna talks about the way he is revered. The fact that Codagh doesn’t seem to be held in as high of esteem, speaks loudly to me. Maybe he is too close to the corruption? Also of note, despite the fact Everyone was called to the fight Aetos isn’t mentioned as being there. With his rank and everyone being called to fight. He should be there. Barlowe says breaking the ward stone was something he promised to do. Markem, Nolon, Varrish, and probably Aetos (based on the timeline Jack had the mountain nearly kill him prior to Varrish’s arrival) are the only known people involved with Jack prior to his return. Another thing to remember, is Violet’s first assassin encounter, Violet mentions his red eyes and connects it to a drug, but we now know it was most likely an initiate Venin.
I also think their father knew they could get the wards up. When Lilith gets the second journal to Violet, she says her husband knew the other journal was misleading and had told her. If the leader of the Venin wad Mr. Sorrengail, he would have known they’d be able to get the wards back up at least potentially.
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1. Cory
  December 1, 2023 at 10:50 am
  Hi Sarah,
  I do love a different take. I’m exchanging thoughts on this with another reader here in the comments, Diana. She pointed out something interesting. That back in the days, Generals could be anything: healers, infantry even scribes. So what if it has something to do with Markham. He seems like the type of character that would REALLY be involved in something like this.
  And yes, you are right. Andarna wants to be Tairn and not Codagh, even thought Codagh is technically an elder and more powerful than Tairn.
  Based on your comment as well, I do think SOME of the leadership is somehow involved in aiding venin and tearing down the kingdom from the inside. I don’t think Melgreen tho, as he clearly wanted to protect Navarre.
  Reply
  1. sarah
    December 5, 2023 at 1:28 pm
    I think since Lilith Sorrengail is the general of the college which protects the ward and the Vale, the dragons would view the college’s general as their general over Melgren. I think markham is also an interesting take. He definitely knows more than he says.
    Reply
Jessica
December 2, 2023 at 7:17 am
If Xaden became venin because he stole magic from the ground then, perhaps the key to removing the venin is to return power to the ground. I think the book mentions, more than once, that everything has to have a balance.
Sloane is a syphon, she successfully syphoned Lileth’s power into the ward stone. If this is the cure, then perhaps Xaden would have to give up one of his powers: inntinsic or shadow wielder to regain his soul. Maybe I’m way off but this theory has been rattling round in my head for a while.
I was also screaming at Violet throughout Iron Flame as , at no point has she gone to read all her dad’s books. She knows he had researched feather tails and she isn’t eager to read all about them…it seems strange. She has such a. Thirst for knowledge that I was sure we would get to discover what her dad had learnt – maybe his journals are the key to saving Xaden.
Reply
1. Cory
  December 2, 2023 at 8:25 am
  Hi Jessica, I do love the nature likes all things in balance theory actually. It would be brilliant if Xaden needed to give up one of his powers to gain balance. Basically because we don’t need him to be an inntinnsic anymore. It’s a very strong signet but it was useful to create drama in the first book when he was reading Violet’s mind. Now, useful tool but we don’t really need it.
  And are you telling me about Violet? ALL those books are kept in the same way she left them. Gosh Violet, run back and READ!
  Reply
Joline
December 4, 2023 at 4:08 pm
Can someone help me out with this question;
the timeline of the last chapters of IF doesn’t sit well with me. The chapter of Violet POV and Xaden POV are simunltaneously am I right?
POV XADEN:
-Between the time Xaden was hanging in the air by the Sage/General and turning Venin he checked on Violet and knew she was sacrificing herself/ burning out. When put down he tried using more power but failed en eventually channeled from the earth (turning Venin).
POV VIOLET:
-Violet checked on Xaden when her mom wanted to sacrifice herself through Sloan. She could nog separate her own emotions from Xaden quote ‘He’s… I can’t think around the pain, can’t breathe for the tightness in my chest, can’t feel the ground beneath my feet’. What i think means he is being held in the air by the sage at that time.
-Then you have Violet quote: ‘I drag my gaze to hers, but I’m not here. Not really. I’m dying on the battlefield, the last of my strenght fading, burning, consuming my body. But it will be worth it to save the one I love. Violet. –> so Xaden is burning out and dying aka still not turned Venin I would think.
–>Then why is it that when you read Xanden POV he didn’t know Violet was already mended a little bit by Brennan. But he reached out to Violet between hanging in the air and nearly draining himself to death. Is this an error. He should have reached out to her before hanging in the air, when she was really sacrificing herself.
Thanks!
Reply
1. Cory
  December 5, 2023 at 9:51 am
  I think we have parts of their POV overlapping.
  So Violet can somehow get herself in Xaden’s body (maybe this is her signet who knows). She can feel all the pain, hopelessness, and helplessness that he is feeling as he is dying.
  “My body sags— my full weight in Aaric’s arms—as my mind fights to separate Xaden’s emotions from mine.”
  Then you have this also from Violet’s POV:
  “I drag my gaze to hers, but I’m not here. Not really. I’m dying on the battlefield, the last of my strength fading, burning, consuming my body.
  But it will be worth it to save the one I love. Violet.
  “Fight!” I scream down the bond at all three of them, shouting past blood and vengeance. Wrath and fire. The sour taste of wyvern flesh between her teeth.”
  Then you if check his POV: “I throw myself down the bond and feel Violet slipping, burning, intending to… My shadows slip, but the general doesn’t move.
  She’s going to sacrifice herself to save me.”
  So I think what happened is that just as Violet almost burn out saving everyone, Xaden turned. It just bad timing. If he had waited maybe another minute, Lilith would have imbued the wardstone and the wards would have been up. Or maybe, it would have been too late for Xaden either way. He had no way of knowing that Lilith would have sacrificed herself. So he did what he did to save Violet. And Violet wanted to save Xaden. Love, quite poetic really.
  Reply
Amber
December 5, 2023 at 8:55 am
My theory is, the leader of Venin is Xandans Mom, it’s why Fen Riorson was so determined to defeat them because he knew what she was capable of.
It’s also why he has that chest.
I think violets signent could be something to do with connecting to dragons, like how she talked to a few of them and they trust her? That or she can see the future and that’s how she dreamt of the venin and she passed that to xandan when they slept, like it comes to her in her dreams.
Reply
1. Cory
  December 5, 2023 at 9:35 am
  But I think we know that General venin is a he. I think Violet refers to him as a he. “One of the venin got away in Resson, red veins spidering away from his malevolent eyes.”
  I think there is something super sinister going on with Xaden’s mom, though. And we are very ready to figure it out. She was mentioned twice now, we can expect something crazy about it.
  Reply
Amanda
December 5, 2023 at 10:39 pm
Some thoughts:
1. Could Xaden’s mom be the vein general? She ran away when he was 10, never to be heard again. And didn’t seem to have a good relationship with his father. That would also explain why the Sage/General wanted him so badly.
2. Andarna said a few times that she would be where she was needed. I can’t stop thinking about that. What would it mean?
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1. Cory
  December 6, 2023 at 9:47 am
  There is a tether between General Venin and Xaden. But I want to point out that General Venin is always refered to as a “he” and “him”. So I doubt it’s the mom. I’m wondering if the mom is actually a good character. She’s somewhere on the isles? I don’t know.
  It’s because at the end of the book Xaden does say “What is it about me that fails the females in my life?”
  Reply
Taylor
December 6, 2023 at 1:35 am
What about Lilith using the same phrase to describe Violet when she was dying as Adarna used when revealing her secret- “the mind of a scribe and the heart of a rider” – How did General Sorengail know that same phrase? Coupled with “everything was to get you to this point where you were strong enough” and “you are everything we hoped you would be.” Then had to go back and cover tracks with “all three of you.”
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1. Cory
  December 6, 2023 at 9:14 am
  I feel like Lilith Sorrengail was protecting violet above all. I do feel that she knows so much, and Violet needs to hurry the hell up and go through her mother’s stuff before the next General takes over her office. I think she holds crucial information that we are going to need. Was Lilith her mother? Because in a weird way she does say “I might be a stranger to you, Violet, but you are far from a stranger to me.”
  WHAT does that mean? Was there even a pregnancy with Violet? Was there a fever? ARGH so many questions!
  Reply
  1. EBomb
    December 11, 2023 at 2:13 am
    I wonder how old is the Prophecy about Violet, and who foretold said Prophecy and what it says? I bet it’s going to be something along the lines or “remaking the world” or something… Did it come with the slaying of the First Venin or with the First Riders? Is that was Dad Sorrengail was researching in the archives? Lilith made sure Xaden kept watch over Violet – what was the reasoning behind that? Purely selfish or a puzzle piece in the foretold story? Tairn knew exactly who and what V is… it’s getting interesting, end of 2024 can’t be here fast enough!
    Reply
    1. Cory
      December 12, 2023 at 11:53 am
      Please do not remind me that we need to potentially wait a whole year for the next book. I will not be able to live with myself until then, I swear!!!
      Do you remember, in FW how Jack mocked Violet? “I’m not the one who thinks precognition is a thing,” he retorts with a sneer.
      I think precognition is a thing. Just not really the way we imagined it. Maybe not as a signet?
      Reply
      1. EBomb
        December 14, 2023 at 5:07 am
        Ooooh! That’s interesting, my head is spinning… What if the Dragon Elders of old had that gift? Or the Ancient King that we learn from Jesinia’s text translation? I will do some digging to see where precognition and foretold are being used as clues… Wink, wink!
      2. Cory
        December 14, 2023 at 10:40 am
        I am also on a quest right now. I’m checking Fourth Wing for more details. So far, just guesses.
Leah
December 10, 2023 at 4:17 pm
Thinking maybe Andarna’s type of dragon can “mend” venin, but only if they sacrifice themselves to do so. That would leave the horrible option of saving either Xaden or Andarna (which I could see Yarros holding over our heads to torment us for half a book), and explain why there are no more of Andarna’s kind – in the last war, they sacrificed themselves to turn the generals back if the generals were too powerful to overcome.
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1. Cory
  December 10, 2023 at 5:34 pm
  Oh gosh, Leah! That sounds like a potent theory but it’s really terrifying. Luckily, we cannot kill a dragon, as that would mean Violet would die…right? Although, we don’t truly know how that works because technically, she has two bonds :O
  Reply
Laura Kelly
December 10, 2023 at 7:52 pm
What if Violets mom turned Venin at some point and her dad spent his time trying to figure out how to cure her? That’s why violet is super powerful because her mom was pregnant with her when she turned and also would explain her dad researching feather tails??
I’m sure it said her mom’s eyes were bloodshot at some point? And maybe that’s why she kept her distance from her children???
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1. Cory
  December 11, 2023 at 11:15 am
  Hi Laura! So I’m kinda thinking the same here…I don’t know why, but I’m starting to believe that it wasn’t Dad Sorrengail. It was Lilith who might have been turned and kept under control all these years.
  Reply
EBomb
December 11, 2023 at 2:00 am
I think Andarna’s fire breathing is the weapon to kill Venin. That’s what’s missing from over 600 years ago and the 7th breed of dragons. Andarna is a camouflage dragon, she can blend into any surrounding, what if the 7th breed left the continent? Wasn’t a migration of some sort mentioned somewhere in Fourth Wing? I might be making that up, or just heard another crazy theory… I can’t tell what’s real anymore and what’s in the books, it’s been a great ride so far. I have another theory about Violet’s second Signet, I kind of figured it out when Andarna’s story became more clear at the end of IF… I think Violet is Fireproof, per page 70 of IF after Solis scorched her back, just her uniform was burned off nothing else on her body though… “… my head dizzy with relief.” – does that mean she used her signet? Rebecca quickly brushed that situation off, maybe too quickly and it wasn’t mentioned again! Suspicious? I get that she had the dragon scale armor, but that armor doesn’t protect your whole body does it now? Maybe you can do some digging and tell I’m crazy 🤣. Anyways, I found your site recently, and I absolutely adore you, how your brain works and, all the theories! Keep them coming, I’m eating it all up! It’s been my honor…
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1. Cory
  December 12, 2023 at 11:50 am
  Hi! Thank you so much for your kind words. I am trying my very best to keep it up.
  I’m going to do some digging to see if I can find new references for her burns.
  Oh and I wanted to say that I totally agree that Andarna’s fire is the weapon they are searching for. The issue is, what happened to the rest of the 7th breed? Where is the line?
  I also think there was a mass migration and they are all on the isles. Which is why maybe the isles are not kept separate from the continent, to protect the ultimate weapon.
  Reply
2. EBomb
  December 14, 2023 at 5:29 am
  I agree they migrated to the isles! I knew that part was in the book (pat on the back for myself) :). Since the dragons camouflaged Noone knew they existed or it was just yet another secret the dragons are hiding. If the 7yh den looked like Andarna does, they wouldn’t be able to bear a rider correct? She’s a well kept secret that only the elders know about- just a theory. Maybe Andarna’s physical features are the same as all the chameleon dragons… so the 7th didn’t have a rider.
  Why do Venin are interested in feathertails? The old grouchy Venin might be seeing the future and saw Andarna in a premonition as a feathertail of some sort, or a legend, that’s why all the Venin have they’re lackies looking for the real thing. They want to distroy her before she can destroy them! She’s the threat to them and their pants or robes are shaking!!!
  After the great war the Dragons all moved to the isles, maybe the dragons are still there, just blended into the environment:)
  Reply
  1. Cory
    December 14, 2023 at 10:42 am
    I 100% believe the 7th breed is somewhere. Maybe not Andarna’s parents, but relatives for sure. Precognition is a thing and I do wonder if that belongs to dragons or humans, or both.
    I am working on a theory about feathertails and venin. K hinted at it as well, that it’s maybe a connection between feathertails/young dragons being able to kill venin.
    Reply
Strina
December 26, 2023 at 1:03 pm
Hi at all
I devoured both books in 4 days and am now just completely lost and very sad to have to wait at least 1 year for the sequel. What a cliffhanger at the end that not only shocks but leaves the reader with a ton of questions. At the same time, I am incredibly happy that it has captivated you all and that you feel the same way as I do.
So many questions go through my head.
1) What other role does Xaden’s mother play? My feeling is that she could contribute to the solution, among other things.
2) Father figure: Could General Melgren be Violet’s father? Violet speaks to Codagh at the end, which no other rider would dare to do.
3) Naolin: Could Naolin be the general of the Veneni? Did he perhaps not die, but become a Veneni? Tairn doesn’t want to talk about his previous rider.
4) What else did General Sorrengail know about the healing of the Veneni? Why was her husband looking for the feather tails? Violet’s mother once asked her where her husband’s books had gone.
5) What other secrets is Xaden hiding? He undoubtedly remains the key figure and is probably destined for something higher. Although he doesn’t tell Violet everything, he genuinely loves her and only wants the best for her. We also know too little about Xaden’s past, especially about his deal with Violet’s mother.
5) Was Jack always a Veneni or did he only become one after the fall into the depths? What role did Nolon play and what does he know? Markham’s role also needs to be questioned. What did they know? What was their real goal?
Either way, I can hardly spend an hour without thinking about the story. I’m as addicted to it as Xaden is to Violet and I’m almost burning out inside.
I really hope that Xaden and Violet will love each other to the end like their two mighty dragons.
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1. Cory
  December 27, 2023 at 9:39 am
  Hi Strina, I’m so glad you loved the books!
  Alright let’s address the questions. Gosh, I love this so so much!
  1) I, personally, think she was a Goddess…or is.
  2) Hmmm…not impossible. But weirdly enough, I don’t feel this way. I actually think her father is Malek. And I know this is MAD. But I do have a theory about it on the site.
  3) I 100% believe Naolin was/is venin. I think General Daramor is the head of the venin now.
  4) I believe it might be something to do with their gifts. Or something to do with their power. Either way, feathertails are VERY important, and we are about to find out why…hopefully in the following book!
  5) Ohhoooooo I think Xaden has so many secrets. to draw a parallel, it feels like Rebecca Yarros is Xaden and we are mere Violets. We just don’t know what the hell is going on, while Xaden just knows about everything 🙂
  6) Violet said Jack turned before he took her to the mat. He then said he turned the moment Tairn picked Violet. So either way, some time between Threshing and their first proper fight on the mat. Nolon knows everything about venin. It’s clear from the last missive in the last chapter. If you pay close attention to his rank, you’d notice the missive is from way in the past. So Nolon has known for a while that it’s all about control. I believe he’s treating this like a disease of a soul and he’s been trying to mend. I believe Markham is some sort of venin or at least very much corrupted by power and venin. I think Markham is a BAD GUY through and through.
  Either way, I can hardly spend an hour without thinking about the story. >> https://www.empyreanriders.com/articles/iron-flame-book-hangover-a-list-of-recommended-fantasy-books-to-fill-the-void/
  Maybe this will help. For me, well…I went back and read the books over and over 🙂
  P.S. We do need a HEA ending. I hope Rebecca Yarros knows this!
  Reply
  1. Strina
    December 27, 2023 at 3:37 pm
    First of all, I would like to thank you for this wonderful blog, dear Cory. It’s unbelievable how much attention to detail you put into feeding it with information. It’s like balm on the soul for addicted readers. <3
    1) What a grandiose thesis! It could well be that Xaden's mother was/is a goddess. Let's imagine this: he has 2 signets, has bound one of the most powerful dragons and is of divine descent. He would be invincible! That would also be the reason why the Veneni actually wanted him.
    2) If we assume that you are right with your thesis and gods suddenly come into play, Malek would also be possible as a biological father.
    The more I think about it, the more I believe that we need to broaden our horizons. We could encounter new beings, deities, islands and even powers in the next 3 books.
    3) For sure, Tairn doesn't talk about it either and keeps secrets from Violet. I wonder if the dragons have made it their mission to fight the Venini? Who could be the dragons' general?
    4) It's too bad that Mother Sorrengail died. She could certainly have contributed to the solution. I'm coming to suspect more and more that Father Sorrengail was poisoned because he knew too much and was eliminated by the corrupt system (Markham).
    5) Oh Cory, what an excellent comparison! Xaden will probably remain a mystery to everyone until almost the end. As long as he and Violet are together, I'm happy.
    Maybe he'll tell her "My kingdom, my throne, my queen" at the end. <3
    Until then, Yarros is still making us despair and is guaranteed to cause an almost endless rollercoaster ride of emotions.
    6) Absolutely correct. I will read the books again and concentrate more on the details. I devoured them and have already forgotten some important points.
    Let's hope that Nolon will stand up to the corrupt system and the mystery of the feather tails will be solved.
    Thank you so much for the book recommendations and also for taking the time to catch all the hangover-prone readers here. It's nice to see that the story is gripping us all so tightly and won't let go. 🙂
    Reply
    1. Cory
      December 29, 2023 at 1:25 pm
      Hi Strina,
      Comments like yours are the balm to the soul. I’ve put so much work and love into this, it means the world to me that you like it. So thank you! Thank you SO much!
      Let me address your points:
      1) I 100% think she is a Goddess. It’s just…I don’t know. It feels right to me.
      2) Wouldn’t that be nice? Because she does say that in Iron Flame. When Liam came back it was a kindness from Malek. Hmmmm
      3) It deeply upsets me that Tairn continues to have secrets from Violet. But I think this will be for long. She is exceptional at shields which makes me think that she will be able to eventually get through Tairn’s!
      4) 10000% Dad Sorrengail the human was poisoned! I have no doubt.
      5) Can you believe there are 3 more books??? I cannot even…
      6) I am curious as to why Xaden didn’t kill Nolon after all that. But I think they need him for information!
      Sorry for the delay in my response. I am off work and kinda, sorta tried to avoid the computer even for this passion project. But I couldn’t keep away for long 😛
      Wishing you a beautiful day!
      Reply
el
January 17, 2024 at 8:57 pm
Okay so. My BIG fear is that Xaden dies and I’m like I don’t know whether I could carry on reading the series to be honest. I’d rather they both died 😂 I don’t know anyone have any more theories on this?
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1. Cory
  January 18, 2024 at 8:22 am
  I think Xaden does have to die. Violet will be the dead of him, right? But I don’t know if they won’t be end game still. I mean, she did say this is a romantasy. So we just have to hope that she will give us a happy ending.
  Reply
2. Samantha
  January 19, 2024 at 1:41 am
  If she kills of Xaden I don’t see myself reading any more of her books. A romantasy is just that. When I read them, I want love, passion, a magical world etc and mainly a happy ending for the main couple. I don’t know why she would get readers this invested just to crush us. I don’t see it. She is a great writer and I think she will keep us on our toes until book 5. We are in for a ride!
  Reply
  1. Cory
    January 20, 2024 at 8:28 am
    Don’t you think she will kill him…temporarily?
    Reply
el
January 17, 2024 at 9:02 pm
I think my main thing is watching an interview with RY she said that the little prays at the beginning of each chapter elude to the other books and there are a few ‘recovered correspondence from Lieutenant Riorson to Cadet Violent Sorrengail’ and that’s what terrifies me haha
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1. Cory
  January 18, 2024 at 8:21 am
  Me too!
  Reply
Sarah
January 23, 2024 at 5:28 am
Hi! New fan here. I just finished Forth Wing and Iron Flame back to back, and little to say I can’t stop thinking about them! I am so sad the 3rd book is so far out. A few theories I have (not sure if these have already been said) What if there are no more 7th breed of dragon (except andarna) because their death has something to do with defeating the Venin? What if Violet will have to choose between defeating(maybe curing? Maybe Mr. Sorrengail figured out there was a 7th breed and they were the answer to a cure) all venin or Andarna?? That is a big fear I have.
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1. Cory
  January 23, 2024 at 8:29 am
  Hi Sarah, welcome to the world of Empyrean. Crazy time that we need to wait for the next books.
  Oh, many readers here thought that maybe Tairn will die but now I’m not so sure. Well, it’s too early for this theory and frankly, I would die if any of her dragons died. Erhm…I hope the 7th breed is living their best life on the isles.
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FrumpyNewt
February 6, 2024 at 4:07 am
Her gift was time. So what if, she doesn’t predict the future, but KNOWS because she’s been there. I don’t think she specifically says that the only thing she can do is slow it down. What if she can freeze time/speed it up and possibly go backwards through time. It makes sense with how fast she grew. They all said it was unprecedented. And after she manipulates time, she sleeps. Her dreamless sleep was also an extraordinary amount of time and conveniently, right after she grew. So maybe, she spent time in the future, and that’s how she knew exactly where she was needed and when…but also why she grew seemingly so fast. It wasn’t fast really, because she was in the future, trying to hold off losing her ability, so that she could save Violet.
And to fix the “Mr.” Issue and Liliths love of the scribe. Lilith and “dad”, know way too much about everything. Absolutely everything. More than any other single person that they’ve shared. It says the only reason dragons have riders is for the wards. But it would be logical to also have trusted guardians that know the dragons prophecies and help see them to fruition. Dad may have been a guardian of the dragons secrets, and Lilith as well. It may be how they met/fell in love. But, if their mission was to allow Lilith to be impregnated by, say, a general or something else entirely, as guardians, they would do it. It would be their duty and Lilith was very dutiful. It’s also possible it was against her will, which is even darker, but if they loved each other that much, dad would have still loved the child as his own and is logical as to why Lilith is so distant to Violet. She’s a reminder of what happened to her. Then dad would over compensate in affection. But idk about this, just because I feel like Lilith and dad KNEW Violet would be the one to fix everything. Dad set her up with all the knowledge and Lilith tells Violet she has everything she needs….
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1. Cory
  February 6, 2024 at 9:16 am
  Hey FrumpyNewt, I think we should get together and write a full on theory about this. It’s very very good!! And I love it.
  Reply
ANNA TAUTE
March 1, 2024 at 5:16 pm
REBECCA HAS SAID THAT THEIR DAD IS ACTUALLY DEAD IN INTERVIEWS SO I DON’T THINK HE’S SECRETLY A VENIN. I THINK HE WAS WORKING ON A CURE FOR HER MOM IF ANYTHING.
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1. Cory
  March 7, 2024 at 2:25 pm
  Yes, she did say that, indeed!
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M.
March 15, 2024 at 5:06 am
Soooo ok addressing the issues on this page…..
First off Andarna is a chameleon-like dragon, we see many times where she “hides” in plain sight.
-it springs forward from the cliff like a projectile, expanding, changing colors, sprouting wings and claws and black scales.
-Iron flame page 842 end of chapter 62.
“you looked like part of the cliff.” I stare at Andarna like I’ve never seen her before. Maybe I never have.
“I told you I could hide.” she blinks at me.-Iron Flame page 843 beginning of chapter 63
Andarna can camoflague.
As far as the wording in “That’s why I was left behind”
I feel like they physically left the continent, not sure on the why, but it must have been for a good reason. I think perhaps to keep the “power” that powers the wardstones safe and out of other’s hands those dragons literally left the world. It’s interesting though because they state that dragons originally inhabited the continent and they only allowed the humans to come to their shores.
As usual, Violet who really isn’t so smart or observant, dismisses what she saw.
I think you’re reading far too much into certain wording and missing what’s right in front of you. The General’s daughter, the weakling is about Violet. You’re making shadows where there aren’t any lol. General Sorrengail is considered the “most illustrious General” (page 556 fourth wing) and if you recall she gave power to Col Aetos to decide whether war games would be, he emptied a “strategic outpost” (see page 63 of iron flame) so therefore Gen. Sorrengail could empty an entire outpost with one missive. She is “Their General”. She also protects the Vale via Basigath-that’s why they built it there to protect the Vale. So, therefore, she would be considered “their general”. I feel almost like you’re diminishing the power of Gen. Sorrengail here.
One thing you haven’t discussed is COL AETOS=Venin. I can see why it’s been missed a lot but that’s why he was so upset about the whole Resson thing. The 1st year sent to kill Violet, the one that killed Nadine was Venin.
“Secrets die with the people who keep them,” he whispers, bringing his nose an inch from mine. His eyes are light brown but rimmed in red as though he’s on some kind of drug.
-Iron flame page 135
Also….
In the nightmares Violet has the venin tells her he’s waited centuries for someone with her kind of power, if he’s waited centuries he can’t possibly be Violet’s father.
-Iron flame Page 316
Violet’s father saved a banned and technically non-existent book he knew would help her and her siblings to know the truth, he isn’t venin.
But there is something odd about the beginning of the Xaden chapter in Iron Flame, page 876 where the missive from Nolan tells General Sorrengail that there is no cure only control. Why was the General looking for a cure? who was she trying to cure? Because I don’t believe it was Jack, I think Jack was the test subject for the cure. I don’t think it was herself though either because I went over every bit of description about the General and all descriptions of her eyes and had no mention of a rim of red. That’s the real question.
All these crazy wild theories drive me nuts, I’m a writer and I can tell you you are trying wayyyy too hard to look for stuff lmfao! It’s not usually so complicated and dramatic of an explanation. It has to be logical, it has to be believable even in a fantasy novel or else its just ridiculous, although a lot of what I’ve seen so far in these two books its ridiculous and very corny at best but hey I love a good dragon story and the witty dragons are my favorite in this book! What I want from R.Y in he next books? Stop making Violet so annoying, stop making her have literally everything and be good at everything and be whiney and annoying to Xaden butthen turn around and justify it all and still not forgive him?? Fkn annoying! I wanted to slap Violet in the first book, less in the Ironflame but ugh i’d trade her for Liam any day. He was a fantastic character! And Garrick, he needs more pages wtf he’s so funny and love his dynamic with the main characters but yet he’s just treated as a sidekick! Lame! Anyway hope you enjoyed my insights!
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1. Cory
  March 25, 2024 at 8:04 am
  “Violet who really isn’t so smart or observant, dismisses what she saw.”
  Really?! She’s a new adult…who is currently not trusting herself, given that she’s been lied to all of her life by the very people who she’d trusted the most. But then you proceed to call her annoying and whiney.
  While I’m trying really hard to respect your perspective, which you are more than entitled to, I don’t think we see eye to eye.
  COL AETOS=Venin has been discussed extensively on this website actually.
  “he’s waited centuries he can’t possibly be Violet’s father” -> Yes, I explained in the comments as well as in a different article that this idea has been dismissed. Her father is not venin, we know that now.
  As re Nolon, you need to pay closer attention to the titles. The missive is from the past when Nolon was younger.
  “LIEUTENANT COLONEL NOLON COLBERSY” as it is stated in the missive. In present times, Nolon is a colonel, so a higher grade.
  Also, this has been discussed here also. The theory is that she’s trying to find a cure for herself.
  Maybe the “crazy” theories are just not for you. Or maybe, Rebecca Yarros is a superior writer who actually does put countless Easter Eggs in her writings. She has won so many awards for a reason, right?
  Reply
Aelin
March 17, 2024 at 11:33 pm
Hi! Sorry as I kinda skimmed through some of the comments but just a thought ( I don’t know if it has been brought up or not ) but maybe the reason the wards worked in Aretia only partially is because only Andarnas breed’s fire can kill venin ( as we know ) and they need that particular power to imbue the wardstone so it doesn’t just immobilize the venin/wyvern but also kill them? Sorry just a thought I had and wanted to confirm otherwise it would drive me crazy! 🙂
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1. Cory
  March 25, 2024 at 8:06 am
  The reason they didn’t work is because they needed all the 7 breeds to breathe fire on the stone. In the first instance, they only had six of the breeds because at the time Violet didn’t realize Andarna is not actually black.
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Sole
May 30, 2024 at 12:10 pm
Andarna’s fire makes all the difference. That’s why it’s needed for the wardstone. Why her fire makes the iron flame and wards go up vs just a ‘faint ward’. But most importantly, it can burn venin. This breed is the key to eradicate them. Wonder if venin have some sort of iron in them from pulling from the ground that makes them not burn from the other dragons fire. I think RY goes into a lot of details about the materials in the wards and powering them that there has to be more to this.
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1. Cory
  June 3, 2024 at 9:40 am
  That would be an interesting take actually. I mean wyvern have onyx in them right? Well, runes that look like pieces of onyx. So could be. But I think you need all dragons to create the wards.
  Ok, the question is…if we had more of Andarna’s kind, why not raise more wards tho? The isles were once friends and not enemies. If the dragons are there?
  Or maybe there are no dragons at all and Andarna truly is the last of her kind…
  Reply
Rachel Mitchell
January 7, 2025 at 5:32 pm
Anybody have thoughts about jack when they read the fourth wing for the first time?
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1. Cory
  January 8, 2025 at 5:09 am
  Nothing in particular, actually. I was just glad he’s dead.
  Reply

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Hello! This site is dedicated to the Empyrean Series by Rebecca Yarros. I’ve made this place to explore the rich world of Empyrean, full of characters, theories, and places. Each post is carefully researched and updated with the newest details from the series. This site is also a great spot for discussing theories about the Empyrean Series. 🐉
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