Iron Flame Theory: Lilith Sorrengail was venin

Last updated:

Written by: Cory

Iron Flame and Onyx Storm theory: Lilith Sorrengail was venin

An unhinged and super exciting theory that I’ve thinking about for over a year now: is it possible that Lilith Sorrengail was venin?

If you haven’t read Fourth Wing and Iron Flame, please do so first as this post will contain a lot of spoilers. Let’s get started.

I’ve been thinking about Lilith being venin for a very long time. It all makes so much sense. The more you read the books, the more Easter Eggs fall into place that explain why and how Lilith became venin.

To top it all up, I recently got a theory submission from another fan, Naomi Rozen, who totally agrees.

Lilith Sorrengail was venin (and cured)

Let’s first read what Naomi has to say.

“After finishing Iron Flame, I was devastated by Xaden ruining himself and becoming Venin. So just like most of the other fans here, I had to reread Fourth Wing and Iron Flame in order to find those clues that RY hinted are scattered all over the book.
I came by this quote in Chapter 12 of Fourth Wing when Rhiannon and Violet were talking about Venin and Wyverns for the first time during presentation:
He did, but it was after my mom had a really long night while we were stationed near the eastern border, and her eyes were *bloodshot red*, so I freaked out and started shrieking”.

Could this be a hint that Violet’s mom became Venin and somehow managed to get cured??
Now I know that it says here that it was after a long night that here eyes looked like that, but it is also mentioned that they were stationed near the Easter border – the border that was discussed during the first battle brief lesson in chapter 5 where there was an increasing amount of attacks!

Which means in my opinion that there would be enough danger there that might require Lilith to draw power and become venin out of desperation, like Xaden did.

Also, there is another theory regarding where Mira is, at the end of Iron Flame, after Lilith death. Brennan was there with Violet when Lilith died, and the speculation is that Mira immediately went to take or look for their mother’s belongings after she died. If Mira had indeed gone retreating Lilith’s belonging, could the cure to becoming venin be mentioned in something there?

After all, we learned that Lilith was a decent women, and cared deeply for her children and even sacrificed herself to re raise the words and save everyone in the end of Iron Flame.

So why would she keep the real threat of Wyverns and Venins secret from her children, especially if they were all riders, and she knew they might face these threats on the battlefield?

I believe it’s because she might have been venin herself at some point, and managed to get cured!”

My thoughts on Lilith being venin

Nice theory, right? And one I partly agree with. Here are my thoughts on this, with step by step Easter Eggs to support my theory.

“Her gaze siphons every ounce of my confidence down to the marrow in my bones. “It’s like that fever stole all your coloring along with your strength.” Grief flashes through her eyes and her brows furrow.”

Two things here. Her gaze siphons…interesting choice of words here. And yes, we’re talking about the fever, which we all know, it was no fever. It was something to do with venin given that Violet is all pale, her hair is partly silver like Aetos’ arm after being drained and she is more…fragile.

“Because only a rider and the roll-keeper know a dragon’s full name and she’s not certain I’m really his. That’s exactly what she’s implying. Like I’d be able to hijack Tairn.

Oh, I think Lilith knows that one can hijack a dragon. That’s the beauty of it. We know that venin control their dragons instead of the other way around. Lilith knows…How else would have Lilith convinced her dragon to sacrifice himself? Something tells me that Lilith made Aimsir die for the wardstone.

“Mom,” I blurt, and her head turns, her eyes meeting mine. It’s been more than five months since I’ve seen her, and even though I want to be as composed as she is, as compartmentalized, I just can’t.

Lilith is composed, compartmentalized. You know who else is like that? Varrish. He is the definition of control. And that’s because Varrish was venin, we all know it.

We have tried every method we know of, as you requested. There is no cure. There is only control.

—MISSIVE FROM LIEUTENANT COLONEL NOLON COLBERSY TO GENERAL LILITH SORRENGAIL

We all remember the missive from when Nolon was younger and was just as lieutenant colonel. He tried to find a cure. But there is no cure, there is only control. Lilith is the definition of control, much like Varrish.

To me, this shows that we don’t have a cure yet and I don’t actually think Lilith was cured. This is the only part where I am not with Naomi.

But that’s not to say that we don’t have a cure…I just don’t think Lilith knew about it. If there was anyone who was researching the cure, that was Daddy Sorrengail, for his wife, Lilith. That’s why he became a recluse. And I do think Violet will find the research and use it for Xaden.

The final (BEST) Easter Egg

Hundreds of feet below, in front of the gates of Basgiath, my mother waits upon Aimsir, with her personal squad, including Mira and Teine, slightly behind her. She’s in front of us all, her three children and the place she’s sacrificed us—and her very soul—for.

Woaaaaah, thank you Rebecca Yarros for spelling it out for us. Lilith Sorrengail did indeed sacrifice her very soul for her own three children. I rest my case.

What about the venin dagger?

Something else I want to point out here, is about the dagger in Lilith’s desk. I imagine three reasons on why she kept that dagger there, given that they were under the protection of the wards:

  1. Lilith kept it as a fail-safe for herself, against herself. Pretty grim, but I think she would have done anything to protect her children.
  2. As a reminder of what she is. And what she’s been through to protect her children (Violet) during pregnancy.
  3. Simply as a weapon against other venin within the wards. Although, of course, this is a simple explanation and now quite as romantic, right?

Why would Lilith turn venin?

The simple answer is, her three children. Rebecca Yarros told us this herself:

She’s in front of us all, her three children and the place she’s sacrificed us—and her very soul—for.

She was probably attacked when pregnant with Violet. Or something along these lines. And it makes sense because Lilith herself told Violet:
“When you have children, we can discuss the risks you’ll take, the lies you’ll be willing to tell in order to keep them safe.”

What are your thoughts? Do you agree that Lilith Sorrengail was venin?

Share that Venin and Wyvern are real!

This page contains affiliate links.



22 responses to “Iron Flame Theory: Lilith Sorrengail was venin”

  1. Since she died when siphoned for the wardstone, instead of withering like a Venin would when starved of power… the way the one inside the runed chest did… I’d say no, she isn’t venin.

    1. Interesting 🙂 I am very curious about this one

      1. Perhaps Lilith didn’t want her children to realize that she was venin? Or perhaps de wardstone only admit energy from dragons?

        1. Either way, I do think she (or papa Sorrengail) was venin

          1. I agree. I need to read un english the books. I feel I’m missing subtle messages with the translation.

  2. I’m very curios about a sentence said by Lilith to Violet, while Lilith was being siphoned (cap.. It was something like: everything that has happened has been to bring you to this moment, when tou were strong enough to…. (Sorry, is my translation from a book translated to spanish)

    Oh my god! Strong enough for what!???? Strong enough for general of venin wield her? Strong enough to win against venin?

    What are (were) the loyalties of Lilith, apart from her children?

    1. WELL, I actually think it’s because Violet is some sort of God

  3. I think that she is Venin going back to your theory of Liltih getting attacked when she was pregnet. Think of Violet’s hair, and her condition. She is weak and her hair always ends up losing it’s color. I think that while Lilith was pregnet she ended up turning as well as draining Violet.

  4. “but there is no cure there is only control and Lilith is the very definition of control, just like Varrish”… And Xaden… Maybe there’s hope that Xaden can live with this without becoming evil

  5. Also- xaden says when he’s with Violet, he has no control- which venin need/have control. Could violet be the cure/antidote!? Also maybe this make no sense but I also looked up “violet” the flower and it’s uses in Gaelic and Scottish culture. And it plainly states- violets were used for healing due to its medicinal properties. And that it was routinely used. Could it be that general sorrengail was venin when pregnant, and was give a concoction that consisted of violet flowers and named Violet because of that? Also, Violet’s good at making these herbal concoctions to alter her opponents prior to training and that she learned all this from her dad. Could it be because he knew how to make these herbal remedies because he did it for her mom?

    1. So many good theories in one. I do think that Violet’s second signet could be control.
      I LOVE your theory about the dad and the herbal remedies. That’s incredibly smart Jessica. I want to write a whole theory just for this. so so good!

  6. I think there is definitely some connection which is why Lilith had to use Sloane to draw the power unlike how Violet and the others directly imbued the stone. If Lilith touched the stone the Venin in her couldn’t control not drawing the power out

    1. I LOVE this idea so so much. Because I do wonder if Lilith could imbue the stone. Violet did say “she is imbuing her favorite weapon, ME”. So I wonder if that was clever wording so we understand that Lilith can imbue…but indeed not the sone :O

  7. Love this theory! I have also thought that she was venin and when Brennan ‘died’ she lost control and rather than taking power from basgiath papa sorrengail let her siphon him little by little and that’s why after their son died his heart slowly gave out.

    1. Whoaaaaaah! I honestly thought he was being poisoned little by little. But this is a fun theory!!

  8. Hi Cory, first of all I want to thank you for this page, it’s super awesome! While I am waiting for the third book I’ve already read all the theories you put together. All of them make sence and it is unreal how this world is filled with this amount of details and thousands of them are hidden and pointing to those theories. Everytime I read those books I find something new. I can’t remember when I was so obsessed with some other book. Well, maybe with Harry Potter ages ago 😀 I am so obsessed that I decided to read third book in English, because I can’t wait xx months for translation 😀 I hope I can make it.
    But that’s not the point. I’ve read all those theories about people being a secret venin – daddy Aetos, Markham, mama Sorrengail, papa Sorrengail, Brennan, Varrish.. but how’s possible that nobody found out? Venins have red eyes, Xaden has tiny red rings in his eyes even though he took energy from the ground once. I understand it in the FW, Violet didn’t notice red eyes, because venins didn’t exist for her. But in IF she already knows they exist, red eyes is their identification mark and yet anyone of our suspects doesn’t have it? Or all of the secret venins drink voluntarily the serum which can block red eyes symptoms? I thought serum is mainly for keeping them under control in term of not using their powers or ability to drain energy from the ground. Is possible that it can hide red eyes? Or are everybody who know about venins existence extremely oblivious? Because I didn’t find any mention about red or bloody eyes when mama Sorrengail or Varrish are on the scene. Of course except the one when Violet was little and her mum had a very long night. Or am I missing something? Because I think Varrish and gen Sorrengail deffinitely were venins.
    AND! In the last teaser – last sentence. ” You will slip, and afterwars…. and those weak-ass initiate rings in your eyes won’t just last a few days – they’ll be permanent.” What is that? Xaden is not permanent venin yet? Does have he some time to reverse his veninism?

    1. Dear Martina, thank you so much for your kind words.

      Check this out: “Initiates have reddish rings to their eyes that come and go depending on how often they drain.”
      I also think that they drink the serum. As we know from Violet’s dream. Do you remember that a venin in her dream has a sweet breath? Like the serum smells like?
      I don’t think you are missing anything btw. I think the books are just so cleverly written to confuse us and to keep us going without knowing FOR SURE. But I’m as certain as ever that Varrish and Gen Sorrengail were both venin.

  9. I think there are bad venin that want power for conquer and venins turned venin accidentally that are fighting it like Xaden (and Lillith and maybe even Varrish and Aetos although I don’t think Dain is one.). Hence why some are trying to take down the wards while some are trying to save Navarre.

  10. I think there’s a difference between accidental venin like Xaden (and maybe Lillith) that want to protect the wards and evil-driven venin that want power such as Jack that want to bring them down. I think the accidental venin are hiding the venin thing because they don’t want to be persecuted and that papa sorrengal was looking for a cure for Lilith. I think papa Aetos and Varrish are accidental venin and are awful out if self preservatin. The Lillith-used-Sloane because she couldn’t embue herself as venin makes sense.

    1. Right? I too think there is a difference between venin, the same way as there is a level of evil in this world. Sometimes, people do bad things to protect the ones they love. Not because they are evil or seek too much power.

Leave a Reply

Your email address will not be published. Required fields are marked *

About

Hello! This site is dedicated to the Empyrean Series by Rebecca Yarros. I’ve made this place to explore the rich world of Empyrean, full of characters, theories, and places. Each post is carefully researched and updated with the newest details from the series. This site is also a great spot for discussing theories about the Empyrean Series. 🐉
Read More