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Iron Flame Theory: Violet and Xaden are Gods

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Written by: Cory

Violet Sorrengail as a Goddess in Iron Flame

You are going to absolutely love the latest Iron Flame theory. Thank you to our reader Miranda who sent me this TikTok by a lady called @southernlife00. She does not have a bio on her profile but shout out to her as her theory is incredible.

If you don’t have TikTok don’t worry, I will dive right into it and explain it (with some supported theories of my own).

According to this Iron Flame fan, we don’t know exactly how old Naolin is. Of course, we don’t really know much about Naolin at all. In fact, if you remember, I have a whole theory about Naolin explaining that I don’t think he died. And how I believe Tairn actually almost died because he himself severed their bond (and not other reasons as implied by Kaolin).

Here’s where this theory is going to blow your mind. We are aware that many of the names in Iron Flame and Fourth Wing come from Scottish Gaelic. I wrote it about and even tried to explain how to pronounce them all. But this lady, in her video explains that she looked up Naolin and the origin is Azten which means God of Sun.

Again, you know from my previous theories (note: this is a member’s only theory) that I am 100% certain that the Gods are among men in Fourth Wing and Iron Flame. I really do and I came up with some pretty strong evidence about it too!

But wait, there is more. Aaric in Norse mythology means to rule with mercy. Which is a pretty damn good clue for us all because that’s what Aaric does, right? He is second in line for the throne but he decides to enrol into the Rider’s Quadrant! Because he has mercy for the innocents!

But wait you guys, there is even more! The name Sorrengail when spelleed normal means “heavenly”. Which explains my idea that Violet is connected to the Gods. And it explain my previous theory that there is a good reason why all Sorrengails are riders! Because they are! And it also explains why Lilith said in Iron Flame that “the Gods are among us!” because well..they are. Because I think both Xaden and Violet are part Gods.

Not sure, ok let’s continue…

In the video the lady talks about Aetos. Unusual name right? Well that’s because in Greek mythology, Aetos was an earth-born childhood companion to Zeus. OMG, are you reading this?? Dain was exactly that to Violet. He was her companion, her friend since childhood. I’m literally getting goosebumbs. And the comparison between Violet and Zeus. Oh, music to my ears.

Because in my theory about the Gods, I actually told you that her father is Malek. That’s what I think!


Zeus was regarded as the sender of thunder and lightning, rain, and winds, and his traditional weapon was the thunderbolt. I’m literally levitating as I’m writing this is so cool.

Oh wait, as the king of Gods, he also had the power to command the other dieties. Could it be that THIS IS HER SECOND SIGNET? Telling dragons what to do? Telling Malek himself that he cannot have Sawyer?

You’re right…there is more. Zeus also has the power to control time which is clear that Violet can do. Sure, via Andarna. Which let’s face it, is going to be some sort of Goddess herself. Because I’m certain Andarna is no ordinary dragon. In Iron Flame I’m certain Andarna already passed onto Violet the ability to slow down time. And then, she is really fast. Violet can control time. Like Zeus!

And by the way, is this why Tairn pays no heed to the human Gods? Because, well, Tairn himself managed to sever a bond with a God? Or is there more to the story. Oh this is getting SO GOOD!

The lady in the video (can someone help me find her name please?) says “Zeus became the most important of the gods because he uses intelligence as well as his power. And what are we told of her? That she has the mind of a scribe in the heart of the rider.”

And then she goes on to explain that Zeus had one weakness: love. Oh my lord, we’re bringing Xaden into the game now. The lady goes on to explain that she looked up the name Xaden and the name (Zayden) means “god”, “divinity”, or “angel” in Hebrew. (EDIT: Please note, a reader in the comments who speaks Hebrew, contested this and sais that they are 99% sure that it means nothing in their language; I’m investigating this as we speak to find out more).

You remember the bit right: in Fourth Wing: “he is a “dark, avenging angel, the messenger from the queen of the gods.”

And then we continue with how Violet sees “the wrath of Dunne in gold-flecked onyx eyes”. Argh, beautiful! Is Violet Godsent? Could it be that Violet’s mum is actually Dunne as per my original theory?

Ok, ok, ok. But then I started doing a little digging of my own. You know how Tairn calls her “Silver One”. I looked up some Greek mythology and turns out the colour silver, is mainly associated with the Goodess Artemis. And check this out. In Greek mythology silver is mentioned just about as often as gold, the most notable being the silver-tipped bows and lances of the Goddess Artemis.

And you know who Artemis is? The daughter of Zeus. So could it be that maybe Violet herself is not Zeus but Artemis, the daughter of Zeus? (which in Fourth Wing and Iron Flame could be Malek himself…or could be a higher divinity above them all, the equivalent of Zeus?)

Are you on a spiral? Good, because I have even more. The lady also mentions that Riorson means the son of Rory which means the Red King. Having to do with venin? I think so too…

In Greek mythology, violets are associated with the Greek myth of Persephone, Zeus’s daughter. (yes, the other daughter)

Persephone is also the wife of Hades. Who is Hades? The god of the underworld. Zaden, God, dark avenging angel, shadows…do you see it?

The following part is going to blow your mind even more:

The story of Persephone in Greek mythology tells of her abduction while gathering flowers by Hades, the king of the underworld and brother of Zeus. During her mother’s search for her, the all-knowing Sun God reveals Persephone’s location. A key aspect of the myth is that Persephone ate in the underworld, binding her to it.

This act obligated her to spend half the year as the queen of the underworld and the other half on Earth. (Get it now, omg? Half with venin and half with normal people?)

The myth symbolizes the balance of nature and power. Do you remember how Andarna always says that nature likes all things in balance? Boom, there it is.

Persephone is linked to the violet flower, with a specific variety named after her, the Persephone violet.

If this is not a strong connection between the characters of Fourth Wing and Iron Flame and Greek mythology, then I don’t know what is. Seriously!

Question is, is Violet our Artemis or our Persephone? Or is it a symbolic both? Is it possible that Violet is like Zeus himself? After all she has the power to command the skies and all its power. Maybe she is the Goddess of all Gods which makes her the most powerful being of all.

What do you think? Where are you with it all? Please join the conversation here, on our social platform for fantasy book lovers (it’s free to join!)

What of Andarna?

So what is Andarna role? I’m so glad you asked. Zeus had several powers, lightening, the ability to control time and…shapeshifting. Interesting that Andarna can shape-shift in a way. Thanks to her amazing scales, she has the power of camouflage. So a shape shift of sorts. She looked like that boulder, did she not. Now we know that riders have signets based on who they really are at their core.

Then how is this related to Violet’s second signet?

Well, if we assume Violet is Zeus then she has lightening and shapeshifting. But let’s be real, chances are there is no shapeshifting in Empyrean Series. So you know what else Zeus had? He had Aegis. His shield, the Aegis, was another symbol of his power. It was said to be indestructible and capable of instilling terror into the hearts of his enemies. ARE YOU READING THIS? His…SHIELD. What’s Violet excellent at? Shielding. Gosh, she even managed to shield her own dragon, Tairn for a bit! So Violet’s second signet is super powerful shields.

If we assume that Violet takes some from Artemis, then Violet will perfect aim with the bow and arrow, and have the ability to turn herself and others into animals. Now Artemis is also powerful and can control disease and healing, which is very handy with venin!

If we assume Violet is somehow like Persephone, then she would have superhuman strength, durability, and resistance to disease. But she already has that, based on the theory that she is resistant to turning venin (thanks to her being “drained” already while in Lilith’s womb).

So which one is it? Super shields? Or the ability to heal? Or maybe neither and we’ll be surprised with something extra, which is just soooo exciting!

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59 responses to “Iron Flame Theory: Violet and Xaden are Gods”

  1. well she DID talk directly to Kodagh… WITHOUT any consequences… (and gave him… orders in some kind) and to other dragons as well. so… I heve a strong suggestion that her second signet does have to do with something like that. I like to think that the greek mythology is linked to the story…

    1. What do you think her signet is? I also think we got it all wrong before and it has to do with the mythology! I’m so so excited right now!

      1. Well… we all know that the signets have to do with personal traits of the user… like Xaden is mysterious AND wants to know everything… Violet on the other hand…. is much more powerfull (like her ability to ignore pain… and stuff…) than she thinks…. but whats also her trait… she wants to communicate with everyone and cares more or less about everyone.. (Like the time when they said… “Tecarus wants to see u make some lightning” she was like LETS GO THEN ) and it was like at the point with sawyer when she said “Not today Malek…” he was almost instantly back…. (heavily wounded but… kinda alive) So i am thinking that her second signet has something to do … either with the gods or at least the ability to communicate with everyone/thing…. (Just think about it…. Liam in the torture chamber… I know she was cut off from her dragons but…. something was off) (And I am SO sorry I wrote Codaghs name wrong in the first comment…. english is not my first language AND I am listening to the audiobook xD)

        1. Please please! Don’t worry about codagh’s name! Your English is excellent!

          I think it has something to do with using her god power to infuse others with more power. Or control you know? Because control is so important to her. And ultimate the god of gods need that.

          I love this theory so much!

          1. Yeah thats what I meant ^^ She wants to have situations under control. Or wants at least all the infos in form of communication.

          2. I’m so excited about Gods playing a role in the books.

          3. Sorry to tell you but im 99% sure zayden means nothing in hebrew as a native hebrew speaker

          4. No, no that’s good! Thank you for telling us this. She did say in the video that it’s the American version of xaden but now I am not sure. I shall investigate too.
            I’m eternally grateful to people like you who obviously know the culture and can contribute to help me create accuracy.

      2. I think this theory is amazing! I personally think violets second signet is control! Think about it… when she told xaden to release tecarus it says “two lines appear between Xaden’s dark brows, and his grip eases.” That stood out to me. We know violet wants control and when she was told the truth she “lost her center” but was working on getting it back. I think when she does that’s when her second signet manifests. Also to support your Goddess theory, in the first book, when tairn bonds violet, he states “I know who and what you are violet sorrengail.” I thought this meant her frailness but what if he meant her being a goddess!?

        1. I do love the theory that her signet is control. It does make a lot of sense.
          Oh that paragraph gave me goose bumps! I know who and WHAT you are violet sorrengail.
          Doing a little cute dance as well.

          I am going to look for more clues for control in Iron Flame. <3

        2. and think about it… As I stated in my comment somwhere above…. She wants to have situations under control… and come to think about it… she spoke directly to two dragons… and BOTH listened to her…
          You mentioned the statement from Tairn… and… HOLY I never thought about this THIS way… Soooooo

          Ah and Cory? think back to the part when Vi realized that the Basgiath War College was in danger and not another location faaaar away… she stood up…packed and went to go…. and the WHOLE squad… followed her without questioning ANYTHING….

          1. This is so so so exciting, isn’t it? Our Silver One is a Goddess. <3

    2. Don’t forget Violet is also adept at poisons

      1. She’s excellent with them indeed!

  2. This is really good. A friend sent this to me and I have a question how Persophene & Hades end as I am not familiar with Greek mythology. My friend texted me this (after reading this and sending to me), “it’s clearly written out in front of us a million times….. Xaden says you will be the death of me. Violet will have to kill Xaden.” What are your thoughts on this? Does it correlate with mythology in anyway? I’m grasping at straws here as that thought cues instant tears!

    1. Persephone, the daughter of Demeter, the goddess of agriculture, was a beautiful and youthful figure in Greek mythology. Hades, the god of the underworld, captivated by her beauty, abducted her to be his queen in the underworld. This act led to the creation of the seasons. Demeter, in her grief, caused the earth to become barren, leading to the first winter. A deal was eventually struck where Persephone would spend part of the year (autumn and winter) with Hades in the underworld, and the rest (spring and summer) with her mother on earth, allowing the earth to flourish again during her time above.
      This is a story of how nature likes all things in balance 🙂 Sounds similar right? What Andarna always says.

      No, neither Persephone nor Hades dies in their mythological narrative. In Greek mythology, gods and goddesses are immortal and do not die (I appreciate, this is not quite the case here in Empyrean Series). Persephone’s story is more about the cycle of the seasons and her dual role as the queen of the underworld and as a symbol of fertility and rebirth in the mortal world. Hades, as the god of the underworld, is also an immortal deity and does not experience death. Their story is more about the balance between life and death, rather than the experience of death itself.
      Having said all this I believe the same as your friend. I think Violet will have to kill Xaden. I don’t think she will have to kill him for good though. Either parts of him and his soul, or temporarily before we find a way to bring him back.
      Or so…I hope 🙂

  3. Charlotte Schryvers Avatar
    Charlotte Schryvers

    Hey! I had a random thought that if the Persephone/Hades theory were true then Violet might have to spend time with Xaden in Venin territory in the future, mainly due to the Sgaeyl/Tairn mating bond. Long shot, but interesting!

    1. I think you might actually be spot on with this one. I love the theory!

      1. Charlotte Schryvers Avatar
        Charlotte Schryvers

        Thanks! We shall see 😊

  4. BattleAxInTheArmoire Avatar

    I am wondering if Andarna is a “god” herself…just thinking while typing here.
    1. Tarin always mentions how he does not care about the “human” gods. What if the dragons have gods of their own?

    2. Not only is she another breed, the leader of her own den, etc., but like you mentioned in another post, colors are very important, and Violet has mentioned Andarna being different colors a couple of different times. I.e. how she seems to “change” colors at different points based on her surroundings. She is almost representative of all the other colors of dragons.

    3. Tarin says that she will never bear a rider, and it seems that he is trying to explain it due to her size. I get that, but also, I’m curious because she is obviously still growing. How can they definitively say that now? Since he is not an elder himself, I’m wondering if he does not know everything about Andarna or why she “waited” for Violet. So, what if that is just a way for them to explain why she can’t be ridden (at least right now)? I don’t know where that fits in, exactly, but I am very curious about it. Plus, I wonder if there were plans for Andarna to bond her, but they didn’t see Tarin trying to bond her too. Maybe that’s why they let them both bond because how do you tell one of the most powerful dragons that he has to make way for the “little feather tail”?

    4. My personal favorite thought, but I am really interested in why there were differences in the journals about how to raise the wards. Warrick says the “breath of the six and the one combined and set the stone ablaze in an iron flame,” whereas the Lyra says “breath of the seven…” I keep asking myself why they would phrase it differently. Since it is always referred to as the “First Six,” I wonder if Warrick separated the “one” out because they didn’t have a rider, just like Andarna!!!! Why Lyra worded it differently, I’m not sure. So, I’m wondering if the seventh breed is singled out here because they know it’s special, but they maybe aren’t sure why.

    Obviously, Andarna is special, so much so that even Tarin can’t know about everything.

    Lots of thoughts swirling around, but just want to get some other takes on it.

    1. I love your username here, it’s brilliant!
      1. That would be amazing! I would like that very much.
      2. True!
      3. It’s because of the mechanics of her wing. She lacks some muscles which were not developed before entering Dreamless Sleep. Sadly because of that she can not bear the weight of a rider. However, to be able to fly, she is training with the elders to strengthen other wing muscles and overcompensate.
      4. I love that thought. And you are right, it’s really weird and puzzling. I hadn’t considered that “the one” is because they are without a rider. And I do wonder if Lyra referred to them just as dragons without the connotation of the riders…

      Bring in all the thoughts, I love them!

  5. Perhaps Xaden grows worse and worse into his venin form until Violet decides to kill him by dragonfire so that she can then bring him back using the stone of resurrection rune he keeps that his parents gave him.

    In terms of her second signet, in chapter 53 Violet is asking Andarna about a potential second signet when Visia looks at Violet and ‘does a double take’ then asks her if she’s ok. Violet says ‘gravity shifts’ and says ‘but that can’t be right, that would mean-‘ and then ‘how do you explain your heart sinking past the rock floor of the cave’ adding that she’s ’not fine’. I have read and reread this and can’t figure out what’s going on. Is Violet like sinking literally through the floor? Does she have the ability to change gravity? Move through things? I also just can’t get past all the gravity references.

    Love the mythology connections!

    1. Waaaait Kelli, let’s go back a bit. Which stone of resurrection? Did I miss something so important in Iron Flame? Could you tell me which chapter, please?
      BRB going to read the paragraphs with gravity again. I honestly thought she just simply has that as an extension to her initial signet (pure power). Hmmm. Let me read it again. Chapter 53…

    2. So I’ve been searching in the book for the word “gravity shift”.
      Here is what we’ve got:

      Gravity, logic, whatever it is that keeps me grounded shifts. There’s no way that was…intentional, is there? -> When she realises Ciaran was murdered by Solas

      Gravity shifts as I realize my worst nightmare is indeed a living, breathing monster.
      Two legs. Not four. Wyvern. -> When she sees wyvern.

      Gravity shifts as I stare at that thin silver line and its precise edges. It’s… gods, it’s the same length as the ones on his back. Xaden isn’t responsible for just the marked ones anymore; he’s responsible for me. -> When she is feeling really upset. She can feel something is wrong.

      Gravity shifts. That can’t be right. That would mean—
      “Violet, are you okay?” Visia asks.
      I shake my head but say, “Yes.” How do you explain your heart is
      sinking past the rock floor of the cave? -> Again, she can feel danger coming.

      She is extremely intuitive.

      1. Gravity shifts in the context of this passage from Iron Flame is likely metaphorical, symbolizing a sudden and profound change in Violet’s perception or understanding of her situation. It’s not describing an actual physical shift in gravity, but rather a shift in Violet’s internal state or realization.

      2. Gravity shifts are not metaphorical. This could indicate a sudden and real change in the physical environment around her. Related to her second signer? Maybe. Related to the fact that she is pure power? Also possible.

  6. Shields and healing. That is Mira (ward extension) and Brennan (healing). While I think this is a cool idea, I feel like Violet’s family is playing into the lore.

  7. I’m interested to hear your thoughts on Lilith Sorrengail’s name as it relates to this- in Jewish folklore Lilith is a female demonic figure, the mother of Adam’s demonic offspring. It definitely ties in with the idea of Violet being divine!

    1. You are so right about it. When I was a little girl I was so fascinated by the occult and I remember reading about Lilith. Fascinating. I am not familiar with Jewish folklore but I will look into it today and come back with a theory for it. I love how many hints we get that there are Gods in the book!

  8. Small add-ons that didn’t seem to be in the post or previous comments:

    Hades (stress on the first A, pronounced ha-des, like [ha]-ha-ha-[des]picable) is the older form of the underworld god Ades’s name, that is still used in many languages. If you were to spell the H out in Greek, you’d use the letter chi, which basically looks like “x”. The Cyrillic “h” also happens to be the Latin “x”. So consider now pronouncing it Haden ([ha]-ha-[den]) instead of Zayden.

    Funny enough, Xaden quite literally wields darkness, conceals stuff and appears out of nowhere. “Hell” in Greek is also “ades” (invisible) which is where the god’s name comes from. Slavic languages have borrowed the same word. No need to mention that many of Xaden’s physical features are described as dark/deep in one form or another. He learned to draw power from the ground (reference to the underworld?).

    Bonus (erotic), in one of the sex scenes towards the end of Fourh Wing, there was an exchange along the lines of “Oh gods” (by Violet) / “Which one?” / “You” / “Thanks for the upgrade, but my name will do”.

    Bonus (non-erotic): the tale of the three brothers, one turning venin, eventually defeated by the lightning-wielding one. Zeus, Poseidon, Hades, ruling the earth+sky, seas and underworld, respectively. That was supposed to be literal luck of the draw, though Zeus and Poseidon cheated. Note that unlike in popular culture, in the original Greek mythology Hades is actually not a bad guy, and he does his job well. Perhaps one has to look at the Titans when reading into the Tales of the Barren.

    Bonus (long shot) Sorren-> Soren (thunder in some languages, anglicised with double “r”), gail -> gale (storm, etc.)

    Bonus (extra long shot): Aretia maybe has something to do with the god of war Ares?

    1. Vlad, hi! This is beautiful. Thank you SO much. This made my day in so many ways.
      The play with the letter H/X is incredible. I’m here for it and I love it so so much. YES!
      Right? So it makes so much sense that he is somehow, Hades or at least Hades like. My question is, what is his relationship with Goddess Dunne? Also, why would Amari create Violet with his weakness in mind.
      “”He knows exactly how much I value my own life,” I counter, my gaze roaming down Sorrengail’s body. There’s absolutely nothing to dislike about what I see. In fact, if Amari herself ever designed a woman with my downfall in mind… Well, fuck.”
      The above reference is from Xaden’s POV chapter 16 (bonus chapters)

      Your bonus (erotic) is freaking insanely awesome. You are right. She said it herself.

      Bonus (XL shot) -> Aretia has the massive temple of Amari in there. Amari -> Rhiannon. Her face reminds Violet of the renderings of Amari, the Goddess of Gods.

      Here is my bonus: Ridoc said he is the God of land navigation. 😛 I take that at face value.

      Question: Who, then, is Malek to Violet and mama Sorrengail? Because she did say “she will get to see him soon”. And I don’t think she meant Dada Sorrengail, I think she meant Malek. And Malek is sending Liam as a kindness? Is he her dad? Or he is just terrified that he took Liam from her…

      Anyway, Vlad. This has been incredible. If you have more bonus points and incredible knowledge, please do share. It’s awesome.

      1. Hi Cory, really happy that you liked it :).

        I’ll go a bit wild bellow, but hopefully it will be as fun to consider as it is far-fetched.

        Overall, I reckon your half-gods theory for Xaden & Violet makes the most sense, and perhaps we can generalise it a bit. I would imagine Rebecca Yarros would not have blatantly copied the Greek mythology, so there can easily be blurred lines and fancy literary devices employed all over the place. Going from there,

        1. Violet’s family is often explicitly referred to as the “Sorrengails”. If the play on “thunderstorm” with the family name holds, one can see them, crudely, as a collective image of Zeus. You have the wisdom, knowledge, power, leadership, shields, thunder, etc. when you combine them.

        2. (cont’d in 8.) The first six were actually 12, if we count dragons and riders together. There were 12 titans, defeated and succeeded by Team Gods, 12 again. The mountain itself was created after the battle between the gods and titans. And so, the first 12 created Basgiath and its wardstone. The ruler of Basgiath is, of course, Lilith, which aligns with 1.

        3. If Basgiath loosely corresponds to the pantheon, the boundaries between gods, half-gods and heroes could be extra messy. Which does not contradict the Fables of the Barren (?) tale of the 3 brothers, Zeus, Poseidon and Hades. Taking 1. and 2. into account, maybe Violet will be the death of Xaden as she will make him, well, dead inside, and he will take his rightful place as the prince of the underworld that he is. And Zeus (i.e. Sorrengails, with Violet taking that part of Zeus’s function in this aspect) cheated first, drawing the sky and earth to rule, thus he was the primary reason Hades gets sent downstairs.

        4. Melgren is pretty much Athena. God of war, stern, wise when needed, fiercely defends everything… strictly within his/her domain.

        5. (unfinished thought) I did not have time to write about Aretia, but Ares is more of a warrior’s spirit god as opposed to Athena. And the place is the home of Xaden, and we have the reference to Rihannon. The two of them combined seem pretty heavy on exemplifying warrior spirit and martial skill. One should note that Ares was not popular at school, but his Roman equivalent, Marte Ultore (in Latin, which is where the “martial” arts comes from), or just Mars, was massively respected. But still, Aretia does have a notorious/outcast city image in the eyes of Navarrian leadership, which fits with how Ares was to the rest of the Olympians.

        6. Really nice catch on Ridoc, I forgot about that :). Land navigation god at face value would imply Hermes (travel), who also happens to be quite funny and the trickster among the gods.

        7. Who is Malek, well, who knows. Maybe the riders/dragons are sort of perpetual reincarnations of the gods. Consequently it is ironic that they pray to themselves without knowing… and that’s Rebecca Yarros’s spin on the fixed figures in most mythologies. Then Malek is Xaden. Or maybe Malek is the father of Xaden and the literal Hades, or perhaps the lines are blurred.

        8.1. If dragons and their riders refer loosely to the 12 gods, and there is the reincarnation stuff going on, that is, the earthbound form of the gods takes different bodies, then Basgiath tells half of the story and the other half is the Empyrean. Which does have 6 dens. So Basgiath + Empyrean = Olympus, except that gods do not keep one form and reincarnate instead, Neo from The Matrix style.

        8.2. (totally unfinished thought) But what about Andarna and her den? Well, a 13th Olympic god was Dionysus, who was a bit of an outcast. So numbers fit, but not the rest of their features. She gives off Kronos vibes due to the time control, but not much else. She could have some primordial diety role, like Gaia/Uranus.

        All of this raises a whole lot of other questions.

        1. Hi Vlad, had a busy weekend and didn’t have a chance to reply. But yay for more Gods references. I love them so much.
          So let’s get started. This is also helping me so much with my research as I’ve received SO many contact forms demanding that I put together references for other Gods (as in other characters, what could they be).

          1. Agreed. The family name does mean something. Sorrengails are all riders as well. I think that’s a very important statement.
          2. Hmmm…I see what you mean. Although let’s remember what Violet said: the first 6 weren’t the first 6 at all. They were just the first 6 to survive. I wonder what does that really mean. I am looking into the Titans as we speak to understand more of that story.
          3. Alright so I have a theory about it (it’s in the writing and should be published later today). We all know how the initial venin was created. According to the fable, it was out of jealousy. Xaden however, turns for something else entirely, love. We all know that love is usually the secret in almost all fantasy stories. Anyway, going back to the fable. It does say in one of the chapters “But it was the third brother, who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price.”
          This goes hand in hand with your idea. Violet, commending the sky, Xaden…now venin. However, while Violet needs to somehow be the death of Xaden, let’s remember that he didn’t turn for jealousy…
          4. Ugh, I’m not sure. Athena was also wise. That dude seems sketchy to me. Also, Violet always says he has beady eyes. He gives her the creeps. I wonder why. Having said that, even those references to him being venin were made, I don’t think he is venin.
          5. I am super unsure about this one. Because I get your references Aretia -> Ares. BUT, Rhi has Amari’s face. She would be the Goddess of Gods. Wouldn’t that make her Hera? Basically? Hera was an Olympian goddess in the Greek pantheon, known as the queen of the gods. No? Unless she is Rhea (see the name correlation?) “the mother of the five eldest Olympian gods” -> Amari Queen of Gods / Rhea -> mother of the eldest Olympian Gods.
          6. He def is Hermes <3
          7. Malek cannot be Xaden. No way he is Xaden. Because Xaden wouldn’t take Liam and others. No no, Malek is afraid of Violet or fond of Violet. He is someone who is representative to “Zeus”. Could be Xaden’s father. But my money’s on Violet’s father.
          8. That would be correct. There are 12 gods, it would be half and half. However, another explanation is that Gods did have their own animals sacred to them? “The Greek gods had associated animals, which served as a symbol of the god himself.” But then Tairn does not pay heed to the “puny” Gods. So it would make sense that the Empyrean, the head of their den are Gods. That would mean that Codagh is a God tho, and not Tairn?
          9. I cannot find references to Andarna. I too, get Kronos vibes. The jealous of the “father” (Tairn, even tho not a father). The name, second honor? (P.S. Could be Gaia…but that’s not quite Second Honor, right?)

  9. Sorry, forgot something.

    9. “Dragons don’t pay heed to the human gods” -> “Dragons don’t pay heed to the human-gods” [because they do to the dragon-gods, the Empyrean]. An exeptionally elegant misuse of grammar by R.Y. in the style of H->X phonetics?

    Unquestionably parts of what I hypothesise has been said or alluded to by you and others. For example, Mags’s comment about looking at Violet’s family as a whole. I haven’t nearly had the time to read all, but I definitely don’t want to claim others’ ideas! In all honesty, coming across a couple of your super passionate posts after finishing both books (in reverese order, following years away from fantasy…) is what made me revisit the story and board the fan theory train 🙂

    1. Do you really think? That would mean indeed that you have 6 and 6 Gods. But that would also mean that what?! Empyrean Gods are above the human Gods. That wouldn’t really make sense, given that Violet herself has the power of Zeus. But maybe we’re missing a loooot of the puzzle here.

  10. Sorry again 😉

    10.1. The intro to both books describes an unforgiving arena of war, conspiracy, death, debauchery, etc., “welcome to Basgiath” -> “welcome to Olympus”

    10.2 Jesinia looks like Omiros (Homer) / Hesiod, scribes are a collective personification of a god of wisdom, writing, etc., like Thoth.

    Why? After “welcome to Olympus”, we have a page relating our actual human world, that is, the physical books we are reading [real objects containing written mythology written Empyrean series], to the fictitious universe within [the stories of the gods the story the Empyrean books tell].

    How? “[…] transcribed into Navarrian [English] by Jesinia […]”. Within the imaginary storyverse, the scribes effectively put history in and out of existence. As reiterated by Y.R. over and over via Violet, who the author at least partially identifies with. So scribes are Thoth-like. The human(s) bridging said god’s divine groupie(s) to our world are the likes of Homer, in the case of Greek mythology, and Jesinia in the case of the Empyrean storyline. Of course, Jesinia doesn’t exist, but the author only has so many options to draw this parallel ;). Link right below.

    10.3 I feel like Jesinia, not just Violet, represents a part of Rebecca Yarros. After all, our true Homer, doing countless all-nighters to bring the imaginary world of the Empyrean to life is her, but she couldn’t say “welcome to Basgiath, hey, I wrote this if you didn’t know yet, now please go on”. She can, however, make Jesinia do it on her behalf 😉

    1. Hey hey, please never apologise! I’m living for these comments.
      10.2. You are so right. I was looking into it trying to figure out who the hell is Jesinia. Because she is not a god for sure. But she is the ultimate one: the narrator. Homer. Thamk you!!!
      Yeah this actually makes the most sense. I love this theory a lot.

      I have enough to put together a theory but I’m missing some.

      For example. Imogen. A LOT of emphasis was put on her green eyes. Demeter? “Although she is mostly known as a grain goddess, she also appeared as a goddess of health, birth, and marriage, and had connections to the Underworld”. I mean she is a marked one so I get it…
      And then we have so many others. Andarna. I can’t quite place her. Bodhi? Counter signets? Is there such a God who could “counter” other powers? Not Aware of one.
      Garick. Strong, powerful. His dragon means pain right? His signet must be related to that. Are we looking at Ares here? Could he be Cerberus? We don’t know of Garick’s signet yet so….maybe? Cerberus can be considered Hades’ loyal companion, serving both as a protector of his realm and as a constant presence in the underworld? Or Oizys? the personification of pain or distress?

  11. As a native Greek and Jewish, I can tell you that:
    Aaric name do not belong to Greek Mythology. Its is a Viking mythology name.
    And Xaden does not mean nothing in Hebrew language. Same his surname. Riorson is the son of Rior and Rior is someone honest, clever with a great sense of responsibility. Rior and Rory are two completely different names.
    Zeus never manipulate time. This was not any of his powers (like lightning bolts), unless if you think that as the most powerful god he could do anything he wants. And also Zeus was not linked with “love” . He was a filthy lover, that had 7 wives and countless one night stand women, just because he could not control himself. In recent time we will easily call him a serial rapist :).
    So if this is all from the lady’s video i don’t think she did good research to back up what she is saying
    There are other inaccuracies at her theory, but I’ll stick to the most important ones.

    1. Hi Sara, Thank you for your input. I checked Aaric and I can see it is not related to Greek mythology. But indeed is Norse.
      The only part I’m slightly unsure about is Zeus and his power to control time. I did some research and I’ve found the following.
      “As the god of thunder, Zeus also has the ability to control the weather in the ancient Greek myths. He can cause rain, clouds and huge storms, including thunder and lightning. In addition to this Zeus, has the ability to control the movement of the stars, the motion of day and night, and even control time.”

      But then other sites suggest:

    2. Control over the sky and weather: Zeus is most famous for his ability to control the weather, particularly storms, lightning, thunder, and rain.
    3. Thunderbolts: He is renowned for wielding thunderbolts as his weapon, which he could hurl at those who displeased or defied him.
    4. Omnipotence: As the king of the gods, Zeus is often described as having near-limitless power, capable of influencing the natural world, the affairs of mortals, and the actions of the other gods.
    5. Shape-shifting: Zeus had the ability to change his form at will, enabling him to appear as anything from another person to an animal or even inanimate objects, often used in various myths involving mortal women.
    6. Aegis: His shield, the Aegis, was a powerful symbol of his protection and might, capable of instilling fear and disarray among his foes.
    7. Eagle: The eagle is a symbol of Zeus, and in some stories, he is able to transform into an eagle or use eagles as his messengers.
    8. Omniscience: Zeus is often depicted as having the ability to see everything, knowing the actions and fates of mortals and gods alike.
    9. Divine decree: Zeus could dictate and enforce the laws of fate and justice, both among gods and humans, often through the Fates who spun the threads of destiny.
    10. Necromancy: In some myths, Zeus has the ability to bring the dead back to life or to communicate with them.
    11. Healing powers: In certain tales, Zeus displays the power to heal others or resurrect them from death.
  • Hi Cory
    Yes Zeus was a powerful, all in one god. There was nothing he couldn’t do, although his characteristic power was throwing lighting bolds.
    His powers overcome the powers of every other god and were limitless. This is how he was able maybe to manipulate time, although this was not his prime power.
    However all of the 12 gods were shapeshifters, capable to transform to other humans, animals, birds even fishes.

    1. Oooh good to know. I wonder if they will eventually shift? Or if the shifting is used as they are bonded to their dragons? Kinda like that’s their “beast” if that makes sense?

    2. Hey guys, love this theory, but as a student of Greek mythology, I think you’ve got some things wrong.

      Zeus wasn’t know for controlling time, chronos was the god of time. I can’t even think of an instance where he did it. Zeus wasn’t even the original king of gods, that was Poseidon.

      The Persephone myth is associated with the asphodel, not violets and Aetos just means eagle, which was a symbol of Zeus. There were no mortals around when Zeus was a kid – Prometheus and his brother created them after the Olympians dethroned the titans.

      Zeus was known more for his temper and lust (even for the unwilling) than his intelligence. He could command the other gods in that he was their king, not in some magical way.

      The Aegis was really Athena’s, though she lent it out to Zeus and other people like Perseus.

      HOWEVER I really think there is something to the idea that the characters in the story are going to become/are descendants from gods. Interesting theory! (I just wouldn’t read too much into the Greek connection)

      I am really enjoying all the wild theories!

      1. Emily, firstly studying Greek mythology? How cool is that?
        We basically needed someone like you to tell us which of these are actually true or not. So thank you so much for this.
        Now I am wondering if the book is more like children of the Gods rather than the actual Gods. hmmm

  • Hi,
    Love this page, love love love reading you all deep diving into theories!

    Just wanted to ad a thought I hade when I re-read Fourth Wing that just hit stronger after what you wrote about Artemis. There are a few mentions about cross-bolts, like in battlebrief when it states ”the stronghold was not only det for siege, but was equiped with the first cross-bolt, which proved lethal against dragon-kind”.

    A cross-bolt is basically a big crossbow, and with the connection you made to Violet maybe bring Artemis, I think that this will play in as a part of batteling wyvern, who are ’dragonlike’. Maybe as an idea of Violet, or she’ll be really good at aiming those, or they’ll strap one to Tairn or the other dragons. Not likely but who knows.

    Or, the word ’bolt’ is just a clever use of words. Lightning bolt – cross bolt. Dangerous things shooting through the sky, killing Wyvern.

    1. Riiiiight? I’m so so happy you are seeing this. I’m also re-reading the series and I feel so strongly about her and her connection to Artemis somehow. Honestly, whether she is Zeus, or she is the dauther of, it all makes sense to me.

  • Hi late to the party here but just wanted to add onto all these amazing comments. On page 568 of IF, Lilith Sorrengail addresses the remaining cadets before the horde of Venin arrive, ‘We are underpowered. However, the odds may be against us, but the gods are with us’…!!! I noticed this on my re-read and had to share.

    1. EXACTLY!!!! Like…she knows!

  • Hey there! I have a question, or maybe is a hope!! So, we’re discussing how Violet may be a God or have godlike powers, and considering that there was already a resurrection and a another guy is who is supposed to be dead but apparently it’s hinted that he might be alive, would it be possible to bring back poor Liam? I really loved tal guy, I still having trouble accepting his death!

    1. I think that’s what everyone wants…to bring Liam back. I don’t know if it’s possible. The author did say that she wants to make it somewhat realistic and it wouldn’t be if everyone would always survive all challenges 🙁

  • Just adding what could be another possible clue to this theory: a few times in Iron Flame, it’s mentioned that Warrick’s journal (maybe Lyra’s too, I’m not sure) includes a lot about the ‘interpersonal relationships’ of the First Six. That could mean just about anything, but it could be hyper-relevant to the connection between Greek mythology and our main characters…

    1. I am so excited about this theory!

  • These theories are fascinating, but something has been niggling at my brain that maybe I’ve missed here…

    Why does Xaden require Violet to ask questions to get information?? He was obviously itching to explain things sometimes but it was like he flat out was unable to. She *had* to ask.

    That feels way way more Fae than God, based on my lifetime of fantasy reading. Usually it’s a curse like “has to answer questions with questions” but not always.
    Anyway, that’s the one thing that makes me hesitant to get behind the diety theories, along with Tairn’s total disdain for “the gods.”

    Looking forward to figuring out where the author is going with this story.

    1. I see what you mean. I Wonder if he’s testing her? To encourage her thinking out of the box? But I can understand your reluctance now that you’ve pointed this out.

  • I read both IF and FW within a week and just started diving through theories… aaand hey Cory I love love love your website!!

    I went through so many of the theories here and they make a lot of sense. But the one that struck me the most was Violet’s comparison with Artemis (and not in the god like way). I’m not familiar with Greek mythology much (newbie at fantasy heh) so I won’t go down that road. But I do think there could be a possible connection between these two lines :

    “But it was the third brother, who commanded the sky to surrender its greatest power, who finally vanquished his jealous sibling at a great and terrible price.”
    “You’re all that’s left of him.” (Mama Sorrengail’s words to Vi)

    What I’m going at is.. could Violet actually be an offspring OR descendant of that third brother? Perhaps pulled an Andarna here (like waiting for the right time to take birth)?
    Something in a history-repeats-itself kinda way?
    Maybe Lilith and her husband are not actually Violet’s biological parents, merely guardians?

    The great and terrible price could be maybe his death? Him opening the gateway to turning venin for more people? Or dragon magic being limited to only being channeled through humans?

    I think Malek being her father could also be a possibility. It’s just with all the references out there, one thing I seem to catch is Violet is not a biological Sorrengail kid.

    This might seem unreasonable or wayyy too far-fetched, but I’d love to hear your thoughts on this!
    (If it does seem like that, in my defense I read those books late at night :P)

    1. So happy to have you here!!!
      I see where you are going with this! So far I’m loving it. That’s what I’m also thinking here, that the papa Sorrengail was a guardian.
      But I think Lilith really was her mother. Because of the fever and the pregnancy. And her other siblings would have seen Lilith not really being pregnant.
      I 10000% think Malek is her father. I’m willing to bet!

      Hmmm, I think Violet is a half sibling. I really do believe Lilith was her mother. But not for a second o I think her scribe dad was her actual dad.

      1. Probably so! But it opens up the possibility of Lilith cheating.. or maybe doing things for the greater good sorta way, but I don’t like the implication if Lilith is the bio mom but her husband the scribe is not.
        A surrogacy on the other hand… (or womb? :P) would be interesting to think about, given the fever and the pregnancy bit.
        Yeah, I’m counting on the dad Malek theory too, it cancels the aforementioned brainrot 🙂

        (Can’t wait for the upcoming books and for being proven wrong!)

  • R.Y. said that the color of Violet’s hair will be significant. Since Xaden said he basically was in love with her since the moment he saw her, I have had this “god” theory since early on. Perhaps Xaden, a god himself, is aware of some lore where Violet’s appearance gives away her as another god. Just a thought.

    1. That’s interesting! I think her hair is the way it is because she’s been part drained by venin 😀

  • Hi I’m Martina and I have a theories and quotes to give:
    1. I don’t think Xaden is Dunne’s son because of my other theory of his mom being general vanin or a sage but I do thin he has something to do with Amari, I haven’t figured that out yet but here is the quote:
    “Xaden fills the doorway like some kind of dark avenging angel, the messanger of the queen of the gods”- Fourth wing,chapter 19, page 224. We all know that Amari is the queen of the gods: ” a woman with a full pack, whose high cheekbones and oval face remind me of the renderings of Amari, the queen of gods,” Fourth Wing, chapter 1, page 13. Here we discover thatAmari is the queen of gods so who knows maybe Xaden has something to do with her. But then again there is a quote that says:
    ” I look up to the wrath of Dunne in the form of gold-flecked onyx eyes” Iron Flame, chapter 35, page 320. So maybe he is related to both or one or the other, I don’t know its kind of confusing.
    2. I would like to say that I think there is going to be a lot more development from Rhiannon, Why? in the previous quote it is stated that the girl infront of her looks a lot like Amari and we later discover that the girl is Rhiannon. She mignt even be Xaden’s sister or relative, we know that they bothare tand and have brown eyes…
    3. The god Violet is related to is Malek she keeps on saying that Malek dislikes her and would never want her soul:
    “And I can’t help but wonder if somewhere, in another plane of existance sits on his throne, angry that I took a soul from his grasp.
    But again I gave him Jack’s.
    Of course, it might have brocken mine forever” Fourth Wing, chapter 49, pages 367 and 368.
    And then again when Sloane says that Maek would not want h soul and later on she thinks that maybe Sloane is right ( I didn’t put a quote because I didnt remember where it was). But then when Liams soul apears in the torture chamber he says that Malek sent his soul as a kindness, but why would a god meddle in the mortal’s affaires? Death (Malek being the god of death) is often related to the colours black and gray and gray is similar to silver and what colour is half of Violet’s hair? Silver.

    1. Hi and welcome to the crazy world of Empyrean Riders here 😀
      1. It’s possible! We don’t fully know the relation between Gods. Could be that Dunne’s son is the messenger of Amari. Or who knows?
      2. Interesting. I think we will have Rhi’s arc next indeed. I agree with you. I am not sure if they are related. I’m not seeing it. But it could be that there is a connection somehow. Given the first quote, I’m sensing there is something. Don’t think they are siblings tho. I think Xaden and Bodhi are.
      3. I think her real dad is Malek. That’s what my gut tells me.

      I’m so excited about the next book!!!

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